fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #544 ]

[ SECRET POST #544 ]

⌈ Secret Post #544 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[formerly too big!]

Notes:

1. FRIENDING MEME III is still going!
2. Fandom comm meme at

heard_of_it!
3. Going to be doing some advertising for

livelongnmarry until the 15th! Thought it'd be win-win, people get to get their sites/comms out there, you get to find site/comms you might not have seen, and all the money gets donated, so. Just a little bit of extra scrolling to do, if you're not interested. (:

livelongnmarry [LJ] - panfandom auctions! Tons of stuff to bid on, and for a good cause.
Juxtapose Fantasy [website] - Yaoi/slash fans - have you visited JuxtaposeFantasy yet?
More Tales of Mu [website] - (More) Tales of MU: High Fantasy, Higher Education.

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 130 secrets from Secret Submission Post #078.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

104. Holy CRAP that resemblence is freaky. o_o

117. Y-you are not alone, OP. D: Holy crap that statue salkhakfja.

118. Don't worry about being a media conniseur. Something can be not nearly as good as the original, and still be fun. I loved The Avengers movie with Ralph Fiennes, Uma Thurman, and Sean Connery. Yes, it was Hollywood BS. Yes, they changed the entire feel of the Avengers to suit what was more of a "James Bond" storyline instead of a quirky old-fashioned spy plot. Yes, Patrick Macnee and Diana Rigg are far, far superior to Uma Thurman and Ralph Fiennes. All of this is true, but I still really like that movie.

If you liked the Get Smart movie, and you wish you'd seen the episodes, why not look them up now? That way, you'll retain a soft spot for the movie you liked so much it got you into the series, and if you really do end up thinking the series is better, you'll have a new love in that, too? (:

126. Why?

130. Yes, but what about those of us who like imperfect relationships between fucked up characters? In addition, that pairing/picture is cute as fuck, hee. XD

146. KJSAHFKJASHJFFFFFFFF HAHAHAHA the briefcase of an angry Natsumi IS THE BEST WAY TO HIT THAT GD TSUNDERE FROG ♥ Also I am retardedly squealy and happy whenever I see a Keroro secret. XD; GO ME BEIN' A GEEKFACE.

150. Nah, not gonna wank you. It's probably not worth it for either a troll or someone who has so much of a negative idea of what they're talking about that even a reasonable argument is unlikely to pierce their skull. PLUS I BET PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY DONE IT BETTER, LOL~

151. They focus on causing drama elsewhere instead of trying to control their own.

And this is why I can't respect the people who do that. If they REALLY can think of other people as other human beings, and if they REALLY have no insecurities, they'd have no reason to purposefully try to make other people unhappy. Either that or they're assholes. That's an option too.

I don't look down on people who visit the image board, though, because wtf it's an image board. It has images. We should be judging people on that?

not!secret: Well, yeah. Mostly because I find soaps and series entirely about who's getting in who's pants/who is rly related to who/who's getting married/who betrayed who/ETCETERA FOREVER to be boring as all hell. Just a personal thing, here.

take!to!comments #1: Despite the placement of this secret, I agree fully with the sentiment. Hotcha. (:

take!to!comments #3: Yaoi is an umbrella term in the West for male/male manga or Japan-inspired comics.

The two participants in a yaoi relationship are often referred to as seme ("attacker",攻め or せめ) and uke ("receiver",受け)... Though these stereotypes are common, not all works adhere to them.

The doujinshi subculture has been considered the Japanese equivalent of the English-language slash fandom.

Slash fiction is a genre of fan fiction, largely written by women, that focuses on the depiction of romantic (and often sexual) relationships between two or more male characters, who may not be engaged in relationships in the canon universe. While the term originally was restricted to stories in which one or more male media characters were involved in an explicit adult relationship as a primary plot element, it is currently more generally used to refer to any fan story containing a pairing between male characters.

To sum up: Yaoi is male/male manga, seme/uke is NOT a requisite to yaoi, and slash fiction is ANY FAN WORK OF FICTION WITH GAY MEN. Yaoi =/= rapist seme and weeping stereotypical so-girly-it's-an-insult-to-call-him-girly uke, and slash =/= "realism." Why don't you please do five seconds of research, plzkthx?

Besides. From what I've seen? People don't really have a problem with other fans having preferences when it comes to "seme/uke" dynamics. What we have a problem with is the idiots who pick one character as "obviously seme" and another as "obviously uke" and think that switching it around is OOC because "so-and-so is prettier and shorter!!!" and thusly would never, ever, ever be able to top ever without it being a butchering of his character. Which is pure retardation, tropes taken into account and all. Thank you and goodnight.

not!secret: Well, yeah. Mostly because I find soaps and series entirely about who's getting in who's pants/who is rly related to who/who's getting married/who betrayed who/ETCETERA FOREVER to be boring as all hell. Just a personal thing, here.

Weird. Cause that seems to define most Fan-Fiction.

Haha, thing is, I don't mind it in fan-fiction. Probably because it's not an entire SERIES revolving around simply that. I can handle a one-off or even few-chapters of something that's purely pairing/relationship stuff, or a multi-chapter thing that incorperates it with other things- but a multi-chapter fic that is soap-opra-y loses my interest just as fast as the stuff on TV. ;;

Oddly, and I don't know why, but I enjoy romantic shoujo plots okay. I think the only thing that was PURE relationship stuff with nothing else that I've read is Mars, though, and that twigged me mostly because of how fucked-up it could get.

*stands and applauds*

Seriously.

I just. askljfha augh. I don't care if people ship a certain pairing only one way 'round, but to tell other people that the characters are "OOC" if one in particular isn't always the seme and the other isn't always the uke is ridiculous. And even if I didn't hold that opinion, the claim that all yaoi = seme/uke and all slash = more realistic is obviously not accurate.

Yesss that's completely ridiculous. It's the same damn pairing, it's just changing things up a little bit! For real.

I used to look at the

kuroxfai board. Still do sometimes. There were people there protesting about people posting Fay/Kurogane stories to the community, saying that they should have their own comm because it "wasn't Kurogane/Fay." And that was the day I cried a little.

take it to comments #4.

if you're finished spewing spittle, did you miss the part where yaoi is considered a genre and as such is always evolving? when I first got into yaoi, back before there was tubes on the internet, it WAS a requisite for yaoi to be seme/uke.

What we have a problem with is the idiots who pick one character as "obviously seme" and another as "obviously uke" and think that switching it around is OOC because "so-and-so is prettier and shorter!!!" and thusly would never, ever, ever be able to top ever without it being a butchering of his character. Which is pure retardation, tropes taken into account and all..

which sort of goes back to that whole preference thing you said you other fans don't have the problem with. I ship two characters and always have one being on top because to have it 'switch up' doesn't work in my mind. I have my reasons, some are actually based on how they look together. it doesn't have to make sense and you people who seem to insist that fanfiction preferences make sense ... well, that's pure retardation, right there.

Uh, and where in that did I sound pissed off? I quoted Wikipedia, said "this is why your claims are not accurate," told them to do research before they ranted (which I've told people to do before- it just keeps people from being embarrassed when their vitriol is proven completely foundless).

Plus I sorta said STRAIGHT OUT that I don't care if you have a preference. That's not what we're annoyed about. At all. If you "ship two characters and always have one being on top," if it doesn't work the other way around for ANY reason, that's not a bad thing. That's your preference. I don't care. It's the ones that tell other people they're doing it wrong because they're writing B/A instead of A/B when obviously B could never top or A would never "lower himself" to bottoming that are annoying as hell. To give an example, there are far more Kurogane/Fay fans than Fay/Kurogane. And that's okay. But the ones that treat Fay/Kurogane as a totally seperate ship and respond to Fay/Kuro fanfics with "BUT KURO IS OOC CAUSE HE'S BOTTOMING!" are being dumb.

About the yaoi thing, that is.

I have seen people review Tsubasa fics- Fay/Kurogane ones- saying that the characters are OOC because Kurogane's not topping Fay. That he's "too manly" and would "never lower himself" to bottoming. I really can't help but find that, in particular, insulting, and find Fay being a weepy girl OOC.

Combine that with the fact that apparently a bunch of people firmly believe/d that Fay/Kurogane fics should have a seperate community and not be posted on the

kuroxfai comm, and THAT'S what gets on my nerves, here. =_=

Though it's not as if the slash fandom is any better - I've seen quite a lot of meta in HP fandom laying out the reasons why character X is obviously a bottom, and couldn't top without being OOC.

The parts of yaoi fandom that does this tend to be a bit knee-jerky and silly about it; I get the feeling it's mostly the newer fans who does this. In slash (at least in HP), I even saw this sort of reasoning from fandom veterans, people generally looked upon as goodficcers.

Yeah, that boggled me, too. Not just the "yaoi = seme/uke!" but the flat-out announcement that "well slash is the more realistic of the two!" I know it's less cut and dry than this, but I've really always thought of yaoi = for Japanese series and slash = for English series, and I really doubt people get more or less stupid depending on whether their fandom is Japanese or English.

I dunno, though, I've gotten the impression that even writers in the yaoi faction that are really good writers/artists with tons of experience buy into the seme/uke thing. And that's not necessarily bad! As long as they realize it's a personal preference and something they enjoy, not the be-all, end-all canon interpretation of the characters.

I've really always thought of yaoi = for Japanese series and slash = for English series

Yes, me too. It's mostly the vocabulary that differs, heh.

I dunno, though, I've gotten the impression that even writers in the yaoi faction that are really good writers/artists with tons of experience buy into the seme/uke thing.

Hmm, quite possibly. Just not the ones I read, heh.

I don't really care if a writer has one character be uke all the time, as long as he's IC. It's when the position a character has in bed affects the characterisation that I tend to hit the back button.

I don't really care if a writer has one character be uke all the time, as long as he's IC. It's when the position a character has in bed affects the characterisation that I tend to hit the back button.

Same here, really! I think that's why I'm :| about most doujinshi anymore, it's like... they could really stick ANY character in there. And a lot of fanfiction works that way too, sadly- they're only the characters in name and otherwise they slip into being Stereotypical Seme Character and Stereotypical Uke Character for the extent of the scene. It's kinda maddening when that happens- which is why I say it can be done WELL, but twisting the characters to fit the cliche is still bad writing, IMO. =X

Hah, yes, doujinshi are insane. Now that I can read them I sort of lost that all encompassing enthusiasm (though the gag ones are sometiomes hilarious).

twisting the characters to fit the cliche is still bad writing, IMO.

No, I agree. It is bad writing. I believe a good writer can make any situation work, but the characters' reactions to the situation must be IC.

I suppose I've developed a sort of warning system that helps me avoid these things (those years in the HP fandom was really helpful for that, I can tell you). For instance, if a writer makes a point of how much taller one character is than the other, I know he's going to have at least half his characterisation sacrificed to make him fit the super!seme personality. And each fandom has its own warning signs (though some are universal). I will never read a Naruto fanfic containing the word "sun-kissed" for example.

Phew. To those of us who've been keeping up on the BL fandom over there and enjoying the recent slew of manga without strict seme/uke roles, I must say it's reassuring to know we aren't making this all up in our minds ;p

Otherwise, where is all my money going and what do I do with all this imaginary porn?

I just don't get how people can complain all day long about how horrible it is to write characters OOCly, but don't see any problem with taking two equal male characters and turning it into a "you're so cute, I just can't control myself"/"i-iyaaan, dame~" relationship.

The big problem is that yaoi, if you look at the definition, is the original work. It's the publishing genre that is yaoi- therefore, an original work that has seme/uke dynamics IS perfectly valid. It's not OOC, because that's part of the characters, just like any other situations they react to in a certain way. But taking two previously established characters and warping them in a sexual way to fit the seme/uke dynamics is still warping them. It can certainly be done in a convincing, IC way, but it needs to have the effort put into it to be so, just like any other part of fanfiction. And again, personal preference is one thing- if you WANT to ship a couple as stereotypical seme/uke, that's one thing, fine, I don't mind- you're enjoying it and that's really all fandom is for. But once you start infringing on other people's shipping and going "BUT [BLANK] ALWAYS TOPS, HE'D NEVER BOTTOM, HOW OOC!" that's when you get ridiculous, imo. :/

Eh, I tend to take a live-and-let-live approach to seme/uke roles most of the time. Even though I'm sick to death of the personally and can't read 99% of BL as a result, I know some pretty old school people in fandom from back in the day when seme/uke roles were taken as Japanese gospel which could never ever be broken on pain of death.

My big problem with the OP's assertion is that seme/uke roles are "typically Japanese", and the implication that the genre can't exist without them. Because it frankly does exist without them, drawn by the hands of - zomg - Japanese people who agree that said roles are so much crap in a basket.

I agree with you, though, that changing the characterization of canon characters to make them fit seme/uke tropes is still changing the characterization. Often irrevocably destroying it, making them unrecognizable. And though I find that most people are primarily concerned with the devolution of their beloved characters into weepy four-year-old girls, I personally hate the big bad rapist of doom seme transformation even worse.

(And I shamelessly admit that part of this is due to the fact that my main fandoms are video games, and often the character-turned-rapist could never beat the character-turned-four-year-old in a fight and does so here purely for porn. It makes me think that the writer has never played the games, which is one of the few things that pisses me off more than seme/uke roles.)

/thoughts on yaoi

*nods* I don't mind at all if other people do it. They like it! That's not a bad thing, really. I personally think it's very easy to make most characters OOC by trying to shove them into those roles, if it's done carelessly- and that seems to be the case a lot of the time. I tend not to enjoy it then because it's less Character A/Character B and more Stereotypical Seme With Character A's Name/Stereotypical Uke With Character B's Name, and I can't stand seeing someone's entire personality and abilities discarded without any attempt at reasoning out why. But in that case, I just won't read it, and if they don't like my writing Character B/Character A, they're free not to read my stuff too. It's when they go around proclaiming that the characters are OOC because they're not shoved into the normal seme/uke boxes for that pairing that I get annoyed.

And yeah, seme/uke isn't the driving force behind yaoi, even if it is common- it exists, but it's not something necessary for the genre. And just because something is "slash" and not "yaoi" doesn't mean it will be any more realistic.

(Argh, the rapist stereotype enrages me for entirely seperate reasons than seme/uke dynamics. I'm sorry, I don't care if the seme could bring down the uke, as soon as they force themself on someone who is going "n-no, please, stop!"- even if it DOES have little heart-marks after it- unless it is in character for them to do so, my respect just flies out the window. Rape or forcing sex is just not something all characters would do. Some, yes, but... mrrgh.)

(My favorite example is Yamamoto and Gokudera, which just... their personalities WOULDN'T WORK THAT WAY. "I-iyaaa, Yamamoto, s-stop~" "What? O-oh, sorry, okay!" "... NO, idiot, I didn't mean STOP, keep going." "But you said-" "Just go back to doing that, retard!" "Haha, okay..." "... A-aaahn..." "Hahahahaha sorry but this is really funny Gokudera-" "askjfsafhgjj FORGET IT. FUCK OFF. NO SEX FOR YOU EVER.")

/thoughts on... idk random XD

"Well, yeah. Mostly because I find soaps and series entirely about who's getting in who's pants/who is rly related to who/who's getting married/who betrayed who/ETCETERA FOREVER to be boring as all hell. Just a personal thing, here."

Yeah, because sci-fi series NEVER do any of that ever, and all soap and drama series are only about the things you mentioned.

I really don't have a problem with a story incorperating that, but if it's the main driving force, it tends to bore me, if that makes sense. It is really just a personal preference here- Buffy could be pretty soap-opera-y but there was a lot of other stuff involved, Angel was... a bit more so than Buffy really, and I actually liked the series not quite as much, but even there they had other stuff being the driving plot (most of the time). Whereas Point Pleasant looked like it was going to be a really, really cool show about the daughter of the Devil, but ended up being mostly-soap-opera. I personally lost interest and stopped watching. I tend to do that with most series if they take that turn.

There are probably soap and drama series that do it a lot better, and have other elements. I just know that pretty much all of them I've watched have bored me, or haven't been able to keep my attention after a few episodes. Again, it's a personal thing. It's usually about balance between romantic-relationship-sex-and-betrayal based plot and other-based plot for me, and if it slips too far the first way, I tend not to like it. Doesn't always work that way, exceptions to every rule, etc, but still. It's just me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #544 ]

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TITC

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Re: TITC

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YOU WIN.

Re: YOU WIN.

Re: YOU WIN.

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