fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4026 + 4027 ]

[ SECRET POST #4026 + 4027 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4026 + 4027 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Overboard]

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[House MD & The Good Doctor (both developed by David Shore)

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14. [SPOILERS for The Last Jedi]

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15. [SPOILERS for The Last Jedi]

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16. [SPOILERS for The Last Jedi]

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17. [WARNING for discussion of non-con]

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18. [WARNING for discussion of rape/sexual assault]

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19. [WARNING for discussion of rape/sexual assault]

[Jodie Foster]

Notes:

Bit early today to make up for yesterday!

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #576.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I agree. I really liked the movie. And I really don't get the hatred - so much of it seems to be founded on things that are just really weird interpretations of what happens on screen, or based on weird-ass ideas of what Star Wars should be that seem pretty far removed from the actual previous movies.

+1. A lot of the criticism, characterization wise, seems to be based on fanon interpretations.

For example, I see a lot of people seeing that Poe was OOC but, honestly? We didn't actually see that much of him in TFA, and what little we did see seems congruent with his characterization in TLJ. Look, I'm as sad as anyone that Poe isn't the sex-positive feminist softboi fandom loves to portray him as, but let's not pretend it was anything but fanon.

This is almost the exact talk I had with someone after the movie. She said that she understands now what everyone was on about with Poe, that they're right, and I said "Well, yeah, but that was all based on fanon and not anything canon" but she still thought he was OOC

I'm a "Poe would be in the brig in any normal universe" person, but not everything is some feminist or anti-feminist allegory. I just didn't get "respect for women" as a plot beat from TLJ. Especially since TLJ shouts its anti-capitalist and anti-fascist ideals with a complete lack of subtlety.

Quite on the contrary, really, the way Poe could get a huge number of people killed due to his ego and get a slap on the wrist and a little demotion and then stage an all out mutiny and get an 'I like him ;D" for it. In both cases after defying direct orders from his female superiors.

I don't buy it given that every other political message of the rebooted franchise involves explicitly costumed villains delivering their political screeds with copious scenery chewing.

He didn't "get a huge number of people killed due to his ego". That didn't happen. His squadron (which was not a "huge number of people") died in the course of an attack on a really significant military objective - an attack which succeeded. And then, subsequently, a bunch of people died in a way that was not his responsibility.

He was wrong to mutiny and disobey orders, I agree, but I don't think it goes beyond that, and I think he was punished in a way that makes sense for the Rebellion.

No. When you disobey an order to abort a mission, deaths that occur on that mission you refused to abort are on your hands.

I agree that the deaths of his squadron are on his hands. I don't agree that his squadron constitutes "a huge number of people", and I think you still have to take those deaths in the context of the situation, which is a military commander ordering a military attack in a war - an attack which is ultimately successful. That's not wasting peoples' lives due to ego, you matter how much you want it to be.

DA
It is a huge number measured against the already very low numbers of fighters the Resistance had left at that point.
And he ordered that attack despite being ordered not to.

I agree that it was wrong of him to disobey orders.

But the deaths were still basically, fundamentally the result of fighting a war. And the attack did still end up destroying a massive capital ship.

IA.

And not only that, but I think that the Poe stuff does fit into a much more obvious theme in the movie. There's a lot of stuff about the difficulties of communication, of misunderstandings, of the limitations of good intentions, of mistrust. I think that's definitely very present in all the stuff around Luke, Kylo Ren, the legacy of the Jedi, Rey's storyline, all of that. and the Poe stuff feels really well in line with that.

But for some reason, people have put this really wild interpretative spin on it, and seem really insistent on that interpretation.

So it is just "fanon" that Star Wars is supposed to be in a universe where sexism isn't much of a factor? Maybe Johnson didn't think he was writing a heavy-handedly gender-based story, but it feels to me like he could only write a Strong Heroine by making a male hero fuck up next to her. And I'm a little tired of the assumption that anyone--especially everyone who read extra canon materials--who is critical of that characterization necessarily expected Poe to be flawless.

Edited 2018-01-13 00:41 (UTC)

I was pretty annoyed at it because I actually felt like Johnson was being kind of dismissive, flippant and "let's fuck with this for the lulz" about a lot of things that were important to a lot of long time Star Wars fans. Which sucks considering that the franchise was important to a lot of people in the same way TLJ is to OP. And I'm a bit tired of criticism of the movie being dismissed as "lol you're just a dumb angry fanboy who ~doesn't get it~" or "how dare you dislike something I liked".

I was pretty annoyed at it because I actually felt like Johnson was being kind of dismissive, flippant and "let's fuck with this for the lulz" about a lot of things that were important to a lot of long time Star Wars fans.

I don't think so. I mean, he definitely uses humor at times, but I think there's also clearly an underlying thematic point underlying everything that happens in the movies, and I don't think it's one that's dismissive or flippant at all. Definitely one that's critical, but still within the context of the series as a whole - and it's probably less negative with regards to the construct of the series as a whole than the prequels were. Obviously, that doesn't mean that you have to like it - it's still critical. But I don't think it's uniquely or disrespectfully so.

And I'm a bit tired of criticism of the movie being dismissed as "lol you're just a dumb angry fanboy who ~doesn't get it~" or "how dare you dislike something I liked".

I don't want to be overly dismissive. But I really don't agree with a lot of the criticisms that I see, here and elsewhere. And the general tone of the discussion seems really wildly disproportionate to the problems that I see with the movie, which also makes it much more difficult. It's way too negative.

Yeah, the loudest criticisms, the ones that suck most of the oxygen from the room, are just plain wrong.

Shouting at the top of your lungs that it's a perfect brilliant movie and anyone who disagrees is an idiot is pretty loud and sucky as well though.

It wasn't a perfect or brilliant movie. It was a Star Wars movie.

Plenty of people around who do what I said though. Equally as loud and annoying as some of the haters.

How is this train of thought relevant to this particular thread?

Because every time you bring up that there is valid criticism and you're tired of being dismissed as some idiot who just doesn't get it, someone will come around and say "yes well rightfully so because so many people who don't like it are assholes" while pretending that there are only assholes on the one side of the argument and not the other.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-01-13 04:18 (UTC) - Expand

I heard someone describe this movie as not being afraid to take the collectable toys out of package and play with them.

It IS "angry fanboys" getting upset because a female character is driving Hans ship and using Anakin/Luke's lightsaber. She is immediately gifted with the force, like Anakin, but unlike Akakin she's gets no leeway. People try to play it like they don't like what happened to Luke's character, but it's so transparent.

Don't be ridiculous, Anakin got a shitload of hate.

And there's a difference between taking the toys out to play with them and taking the toys out and throwing them around the room in a fit.

"People try to play it like they don't like what happened to Luke's character, but it's so transparent."

Try again. There are definitely feminists out there who hated the movie. They were pissed because Rey's story revolved too much around Kylo and they were disgusted by the "Reylo" hints. Those same feminists are also angry about what happened to Luke's character. This may shock you, but Luke has a fair number of feminist fans; partly because he is pretty much the antithesis of "toxic masculinity".
Maybe you should try actually reading their arguments and attempt to understand them. People are going to dislike some of the things you like. It's called life.

Agreed. I've been a SW fan since I was a kid (so for more than 20 years now) and I loved it. I think a lot of the hatred is based on peoples' fanon interpretations being sunk and them refusing to acknowledge that their interpretations were just that - fanon.

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