fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4044 ]

But this is sort of the problem because people seem to strenuously contest whether Supernatural did it

and I'm not entirely clear on whether Supergirl did it either

SPN did it. no idea if they did it with destiel because I quit after season 5 but there was a ship that existed before that and it was called wincest. And boy did SPN mock and deride wincest fans all while dangling the ship on a carrot for them. Look at any of the episodes that had to do with chuck and his fan base. The episode where they went to a SPN con and had gay Sam and dean cosplayers. They were the butt of many jokes. And I say this as someone who doesn't even like wincest and think the fandom was batshit. They laughed at their fans constantly.

And here's the supergirl issue: https://www.google.com/amp/www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/07/24/supergirl-cast-accused-of-mocking-lgbt-fans/amp/

your point still doesn't stand. CW is basically known as the queer baiting network. No matter how much you handwring about technicalities and any LGBT characters they have they still rely on queerbaiting to get views.

I wouldn't consider that queerbaiting? I mean, it's certainly not a good thing, but I don't really see how it falls under the definition of queerbaiting that we're working with here. It would be queerbaiting if they had intentionally and specifically written Lena and Kara as shippy in the show previously, but just being a dick about shipping isn't in and of itself queerbaiting.

Also, I think the point has to be made that, at the same time as all of this, the CW is by far the best broadcast network for queer representation.

DA

What definition? Your personal one? As far as I can tell, fans have yet to agree on a definition of queerbaiting or on what constitutes a good example of it. What meaningful distinction is there between "purposefully teased a queer ship from the beginning with sole intentions of later mocking fans of the ship" and "started mocking shippers after realizing that a queer ship had become popular"? Both are major dick moves that reflect a disdain for fans of queer ships.

why are you stanning for this network so hard? If you don't think a network that has INTENTIONALLY and REPEATEDLY mocking and baiting their LGBT fan base from MULTIPLE different fandoms (SPN, Teen Wolf, Supergirl, and Riverdale, all some of their biggest shows at one point) is a problem because hooray they add a flat token gay or a gay character that's meant be a joke to the cast every once in a while then you got problems.

The CW is not the be-all-end-all of LGBT representation but they sure as fuck like to make fun of us after inviting us to the party.

Oh do fuck off. The world doesn't revolve around pleasing YOU.

Signed, a queer woman who happens to like the CW and its shows, thanks.

Nor does it revolve around YOU.

Signed, a queer woman who enjoys the CW but knows it ain't shit either.

I'm not the anon you've been replying to in the last comments, but I'm the anon from here... https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/1754013.html?thread=985297821#cmt985297821

I also don't think that comment regarding Supergirl was queerbaiting. Nor was it from the showrunners, but rather from an actress. While I agree her comment wasn't good, she is not representative of the show.

Teen Wolf doesn't count because it isn't even a CW show.

And I would think The 100 is at least as popular as Riverdale, as it only averaged half a rating point below it. And I saw more online buzz for the former than the latter. (But that might be who I follow?) I can't speak for Riverdale queerbaiting, as I don't watch it, but what I saw of The 100 did not.

Hell, you don't even list the CW's most popular show, The Flash, which again, I didn't see queerbaiting on. (Although I only watched the first season, so maybe that changed, but I also didn't hear anything about it?)

The most popular CW shows last year were The Flash, Supergirl, DC's Legends of Tomorrow, and Arrow (which I again don't think queerbaited as I said above and as I think you said above, but I don't feel like checking if that was you or someone else). This was followed by SPN (yes, I will grant you that one), Riverdale (I will also grant you that one as I have heard virtually nothing about it), The Vampire Diaries (I only watched two seasons and don't remember it much), and The 100 (definitely no queerbaiting).

So, again, I will grant you that some shows on the CW have issues. Even some major issues. Just as some shows on all networks have issues. And I would love to see it better on every show on every network. But come on, your argument is very selective (and/or downright wrong, as with Teen Wolf and The Flash) and doesn't help at all.

Teen wolf was my bad. I legit forgot MTV still existed and teen wolf had a lot of crossover fans from the CW that it easily would have fit right at home at that network. So I will concede that.

The actress is definitely representing the show. She speaks to the fans, is the face of an important character and is there to sell the show. Whatever she or any other actors says reflects badly on her and the show by extension. That's just showbiz in general and why PR exists.

However, your argument is equally selective in the sense that you're also being selective with your arguments. The 100 doesn't have queerbaiting but it does have problems because of bury your gays but that's another discussion and it happened to coincide with the walking dead choosing to do kill off a lesbian ship at the same time thus causing a huge kerfluffle. (Also the irony being the walking dead CAUSED the dead lesbians in the 100).

You admit you haven't watched certain shows past certain seasons and I admit I haven't either but it's not a coincidence that CW shows tend to stir the pot when it comes to LGBT issues and why it has a nasty reputation.

At the end of the day the issue stills stands. It is the shows/network/producers responsibility to not queer bait and not react negatively when called out on it. Not shame fans for falling for it.

AYRT
She is a representative of the show, but she is not the representative of the show. Ultimately she has no power over what the show does. That is up to the writers/producers/other PTB. I wish she hadn't made those comments. They were really insensitive and uncalled for. But those comments don't indicate queerbaiting from the show.

I don't agree that The 100 has a "bury your gays" issue. From what I understand, they were put into a corner because of the actress, and what else were they supposed to do with the character that fit with the story? Plus, they didn't walk back the Clarke being bi thing and gave her another female love interest. And they still had a canon gay couple. But even if they did have that issue, that has nothing to do with the queerbaiting issue that was being discussed.

I feel that CW shows getting a reaction is more due to the nature of the fans who watch the shows. They tend to be passionate, vocal, and possibly obsessive over some aspects of the shows. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but just that a lot of times I've seen them expect things from shows and get publicly vocal when they don't get these things. For good or for ill. And how am I being selective when I discuss all of the top shows on the CW when you say the most popular shows on the CW have the issue? You are the one who cherry-picked shows and really the main ones that have the issue are fifth and sixth in popularity.

It is the shows/network/producers responsibility to not queer bait
I agree with this. I've never not agreed with this. I'm just disagreeing with your basic conceit of saying that all of the popular CW shows do it. If you claim that all shows do it, then pointing out when shows actually do it doesn't have impact. At least in my opinion, but I guess we will always disagree on this.

You're being as equally pedantic and arguing over semantics when they don't matter. First you says she's not representative and then say she is. Queerbaiting is not "just" teasing at ships. It's also being as quick as possible to no homo a ship in the event an LGBT ship suddenly gains mainstream popularity. The point still stands whether if it's CW who does this with Supergirl or ABC does it with Once Upon a Time or MTV with Teen Wolf these shows will have a lot of crossover fans because they're mostly cut from the same clothe. If another network lwas doing it like say AMC's The Walking Dead or HBO's Game Of Thrones then they would get grouped together we too due to similar cross over fandom.

Most of CW's biggest shows right now are DC comic shows. When people here The Flash or Arrow, or yes, even supergirl, they're more likely to associate it with capes than "that CW show". You say Riverdale? Supernatural? The 100? Vampire Diaries? Those are shows people will associate with CW especially SPN who made a business of queerbaiting like it's nothing else and they still are today because SPN is somehow magically still on the air.

There's always gonna be a whataboutism argument. That's not the point. You're basically upset I said sky is blue but you're going "ummmm well actually it's technically azure #007FFF and by not being as technically correct as possible you're actually hurting your argument sweaty :)" condescending.

AYRT
I wasn't being pedantic. I was clarifying. When I said she wasn't representative of the show, I meant the show as a whole. She has her opinions, but as an actress, they are her opinions, not the position of the show. It would be different if the show runner sa

AYRT (stupid phone posted early, ignore the other one)
I wasn't being pedantic. I was clarifying. When I said she wasn't representative of the show, I meant the show as a whole. She has her opinions, but as an actress, they are her opinions, not the position of the show. It would be different if the showrunner said those things, as a showrunner of a show is representative of the show as a whole. If that makes sense. And, no. That is shitty behavior, but where is the "baiting" in that? Queerbaiting is baiting the audience with things that TPTB know will be taken as fodder for fans/shippers but denying that there is anything to it. Whether it is writing specific actions or dialogues in a scene or making comments hyping it up in social media and then turning around and going "of course so-and-so is straight and always has been". Harshing someone's opinion for slashing and saying "no homo" is shitty and is often from a place of homophobia (and I don't condone it in the slightest), but it isn't queerbaiting.

Yeah, the CW's biggest shows are DC shows, but that doesn't mean they aren't associated with the network as CW shows. CW is the only one running DC shows at the moment. There's a reason Supergirl is on there. It's not like Marvel, which has shows on Fox, ABC, and Netflix at least, and which thus might be associated as Marvel shows instead of with their networks. I very much associate the DC shows with the CW, especially given their history starting with Smallville and especially given their similar style and how they fit with the CW brand. (Just compare The Gifted on Fox with SHIELD on ABC and Jessica Jones on Netflix with how disparate they are and, in contrast, how similar the DC shows are.) And honestly, if you discount the DC shows, that's like half of the CW line-up and there's not much else left to talk about. I will also associate shows like SPN and TVD with the CW, as again they are similar in a lot of respects as part of the CW brand. But they are not the only shows. However, if you had just said,"a few of the popular shows on the CW like SPN and Riverdale have major issues with queerbaiting" I would have had no issue with it. It was your insistence that all of the popular CW shows had this issue that bothered me.

No, I'm complaining that you said the sky is completely overcast when it is mostly sunny, maybe at worst partly cloudy. And I don't understand the doubling down on how SPN and Riverdale and maybe Supergirl have these issues means all the shows and the network as a whole have these issues. I'm not denying the issues exist. I'm countering the scope you've given them. And I don't get why it is a huge thing for you apparently.

Would you be going this far to defend the CW if I had instead used the phrase trashy teen choice award shows? Because it's really coming across as you would rather die on this hill of defending the network than read the original point which was and I quote "Just because a show has queer characters doesn't mean it won't have queerbaiting." This is my statement and it is still true no matter how much you handwring it by deriding it with WELL TECHNICALLY!!! And is starting to come across as being willfully obtuse.

NAYRT but

read the original point which was and I quote "Just because a show has queer characters doesn't mean it won't have queerbaiting."

That's not really a fair representation of this conversation. You've spent a hell of lot of time talking about how CW as a network is systematically committed to queer baiting. I mean, you literally said that "CW is basically known as the queer baiting network". That's a quote. Please don't act surprised that people are talking about whether or not CW, the network, is guilty of queerbaiting, when that's the way that you've framed this whole conversation.

DA

They said that in a post long after A AYRT RT turned it into a #notallCWshows argument. They spent a lot of time talking about the CW because A AYRT RT has spent a lot of time talking about The CW. AYRT's original comment ("See every popular CW show ever") was clearly flippant, but A AYRT RT didn't know how else to argue against the core argument (that creators can still be dicks to fans of queer ships after introducing tokenistic queer characters) and so decided to interpret AYRT's comment in the most literal way possible in an attempt to make them look like an unreasonable fanbrat. A AYRT RT can't even define queerbaiting when asked what definition of queerbaiting they think they're working with, even though one of their arguments was that AYRT's specific example of queerbaiting in a CW show was invalid.

I'm the A AYRT RT you are referring to
I completely agree that "creators can still be dicks to fans of queer ships after introducing tokenistic queer characters". I acknowledged that a few times in what I said. But I didn't take the CW comment as flippantly as you did. And watching the person I was replying double down on that comment instead of saying it was supposed to be flippant made me think that I was correct in my assumption that they were serious about their statement.

And I did give my definition of queerbaiting, even though I wasn't asked for it. It was a couple of posts up. I don't feel that a comment by an actress is queerbaiting. Unfortunate, yes, queerbaiting, no. (My exact quote was "Queerbaiting is baiting the audience with things that TPTB know will be taken as fodder for fans/shippers but denying that there is anything to it. Whether it is writing specific actions or dialogues in a scene or making comments hyping it up in social media and then turning around and going "of course so-and-so is straight and always has been". Harshing someone's opinion for slashing and saying "no homo" is shitty and is often from a place of homophobia (and I don't condone it in the slightest), but it isn't queerbaiting.")

I feel like the person I was replying to was being an unreasonable fanbrat. They tarred every show with the same brush. If they had just said "Oh, I was being hyperbolic" after the first reply I would have been fine with it. Instead they doubled down on how all popular CW shows were queerbaiting and called the entire network "queer baiting network".

As an 11-year-old who wanted to be with Wonder Woman as much as she wanted to be Wonder Woman and who was really confused by this given her upbringing and the media available to her, having a Supergirl in my life would have been huge. Not only could I have wanted to be Supergirl but I could have wanted to be Alex, who got to fight the monsters and aliens but who also got to have a girlfriend. These things I was feeling would have been validated. And I was bothered that it and other shows that I also hadn't seen have these issues were lumped in with shows like SPN.

Media has a long way to go still dealing with queer issues and people. I acknowledge that. But saying that all shows are the same instead of pointing out the problematic ones or even just the problematic issues themselves isn't at all helpful in my opinion. And, yes, in my opinion, makes one look like an unreasonable fanbrat that is easy to dismiss. I don't want queer issues to be easy to dismiss as fanbrats being unreasonable. Hence my argument.

So this entire argument was because you were feeling defensive over Supergirl.

I think you're the obtuse one, here. Sorry you're so full of hate and a lack of self worth that you have to have paragraph-long arguments with anonymous strangers on the internet.

Please stop perpetuating the idea that every queer woman IRL gets off on playing the victem and throwing crybaby fits when they're not catered to 24/7. It's doing worse for our image than ANYTHING some bloody CW show has done or not done, Ffs.

Some of us are nice, world.... I swear.

Naturally, the anonymous stranger played no role in this image-ruining argument?

AYRT
I probably wouldn't have. I definitely wouldn't have if you had instead said, "Just because a show has queer characters doesn't mean it won't have queerbaiting. Look at shows like SPN and Riverdale."

The point that having a queer character isn't a cure all and there might be other issues with a show is a valid one. Saying that all shows are the same with this is not. As a lesbian, I would have loved to have had a show like Supergirl to watch growing up. Where not only could I have wanted to be Supergirl, but I could also want to be Alex, who is kick ass but who also has a girlfriend. I never got to see that, and I think it's important that people get to see that. Sure, tell an actress who makes inappropriate comments that her comments are inappropriate and hurtful and why they are so. But don't lump shows like that in with shows like SPN.

I get bothered when people stick a bunch of shows together and say "look they're all doing it wrong for all the same reasons!" because that doesn't help solve anything in my opinion. Point out what is being done wrong and what is being done right. Encourage people to do more of what is being done right and discourage what is being done wrong, and hopefully things will continue to improve.

[ SECRET POST #4044 ]

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