[ SECRET POST #4053 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4053 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 16 secrets from Secret Submission Post #580.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

So... what? Should he talk in a stereotypical effeminate way? Wear tight pants? Go shopping a lot?

If romance doesn't come up, gay people aren't any different from straight people. Sure, you could have a quick scene of him checking out a guy or something, but unless it became A Conversation(TM), it sounds like that's not explicit, which is what the director was talking about.

[(Anonymous)]

+1

[jadeile]

This. I have been silently screaming at the screen through all the previous comments like "Okay, but WHAT DO YOU WANT THEN?? Gay people are regular-ass people who just happen to not find the opposite gender attractive, how do you want Dumbledore to be 'explicitly gay, but not saying it or having a romance plot'??"

Like geez, I myself am a Bi-ro Ace and I can't think of any way that I'm broadcasting it during my day-to-day life. I don't walk or talk differently, I don't wear anything that's somehow radically different from heteros (what even), I don't have hobbies that label me somehow, I don't eat magical ace food... So if someone made a movie about me, I can't think of anything that would make it somehow obvious unless it was mentioned in a conversation or there was a romance plot where I, I dunno, couldn't decide between a guy and a lady and then explicitly refused to have sex after I managed to pick one. The only thing that wouldn't feel forced would be if my home had a bunch of subtly placed Ace pride items around, but that's only because it's something I actually have, and I'm the correct generation for it. While in Dumbledore's case... yeah, even if he was the type to share his personal matters with people (lol, as if, dude is the most secretive guy on the planet) he would still most certainly not be talking about his sexuality at that time and age. Cos that would be plain careless and potentially get him murdered.

Point being, if people want to make Dumbledore into a Gay Representation Idol without sacrificing his characterization or ignoring the century the movie is happening, then they need to stop whining for something to magically happen and start PITCHING IDEAS.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Um, you do know that there's fiction by LGBT people discussing the problems of passing published in the 20s and 30s when this movie was set? And not all of it involves an explicit romantic relationship or even a relationship at all? Maybe if fandom and filmmakers would actually read the century of work by gay men about life as gay men we wouldn't be having this problem of how to write Dumbledore.

Personally I find passing exhausting because it means putting up with daily casual homophobia from people around me, and self-censoring because straight masculinity is so fucking fragile when it comes to just about everything. There's an asston of little tells that I'm too old, too tired, and too pissed off about to avoid these days (and passing can take years off your life, so it's like giving up smoking.) Generally I'm happier for that, except when I come here and see fandom secrets going off on how it's not really representation if there's no fucking (or not getting fucked in your case.)

[jadeile]

Thank you. I wasn't aware of the publications you mentioned, so that was educating. I mean, I most likely won't actually ever be reading them because they'll probably be expensive to import here and I'm not quite that interested in the subject, but if I ever plan to publish a work where that kind of thing is relevant, then this is invaluable knowledge.

See, you're doing exactly what I wish people were doing: actually saying HOW the issue at hand could be handled. I mean, you're still not giving actual tangible examples (what kind of tells? How would you have a character express their exhaustion about the pains of passing? etc) but you're pointing out that they exist and info can be found once you know where to look. I'm not gay (or a man) myself, so I don't know these things and I suspect that it's the same for others like me. So we need someone to wave a hand around our faces and then point us to the thing so we can find it.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Part of the problem is that no matter how you slice it, Dumbledore's sexuality is just token gay retrofitted by Word of God into narrative that never bothered to ask about LGBT people at Hogwarts until the movies were well into production. In fact, the issue only came up when movie producers tried to give Dumbledore a girlfriend. When you have only one visible example of a minority in your entire universe, they're a lot harder to write well.

I had my own Grindelwald, and one thing I've noticed is that I'm a bit more bitter in talking about that than I am in talking about friendships that failed where I was not in love. So that's a feature than can inform the script. Confronting him on his behavior (that eventually landed him in jail) was horribly difficult, so was negotiating his attempts at reconciliation.

I'm not really expecting much because I thought the first movie was only superficially interested in its historic setting. I might spend release week reading Broken Time Blues instead.

[jadeile]

I agree with basically everything that you said just now. Figured I'd let you know :D

And yeah, the first movie was much more interested in going "Ooh, look people, we're introducing America into your Harry Potter! Isn't that exiting? Especially for you Americans, surely you love this, yes?" than anything else. So I'm not expecting all that much from the rest of this either. I basically just want to see them for the sake of seeing more Harry Potter world and so that I'll know what's going on when the fanfics start introducing new things like Obscurials into the parts of it that I'm reading (such as Harry Having Father Figures, or Being Independent, or other such entertaining things).

[(Anonymous)]

You know what, if Warner Bros were actually crowdsourcing ideas from fans, I'm sure many would be happy to pitch in. I hear fanfiction is big among certain crowds, and that same sex romance is a frequented topic there.

But the fuck is even this argument? The studio has nigh infinite resources and can hire historians, screenwriters, whoever the hell they need to actualize Gay Onscreen Dumbledore should they be willing to. That is problem here, not this whole "oh it's too hard" bullshit. They're not shying away from doing it because it's creatively challenging, they're worried a gay character in a family movie will affect their bottom line, and you're actually making excuses for them.

[jadeile]

No, I'm not making excuses to the people making the movies. I'm only saying that I find it annoying that people in here complain loudly about these things but have nothing to actually offer when they're asked how the movies should be portraying things to meet their (unspecified) criteria. Nothing in my post said anything about Warner Bros themselves.

[(Anonymous)]

Someone outright asked how people would do it just a little upthread from you, and some of the replies have been fairly direct. Sorry we didn't think to submit screenplay-ready scenarios conforming to industry-standards. We're just fans spitballing on the Internet here, not the people actually being paid to make this shit.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

My suggestion, skip Fantastic Beasts and check out any of the following:

* Mae West's The Drag
* Victor Victoria
* Broken Time Blues
* Professor Marston and the Wonder Women
* The Shape of Water
* A biography of George Washington Carver
* The Grand Budapest Hotel
* Winter's Tide
* Passing (Nela Larson)
* Some Like it Hot.

[jadeile]

I don't understand why you're being so snippy to me in particular about this, especially after I already cleared that I didn't even say what I assume you originally got angry about.
Anyway, I'm aware that someone asked, and back when I read the comment threads above this one there weren't any answers that actually had substance to them. Hence why I left my comment to support the person who had the same thoughts I did on the matter. If something has changed in the threads above in the last couple of hours (after I left my original comment), I'm not aware of it because I haven't gone back to read them, as I'm not quite that invested in the discussion.

And, for the record, I'm fully aware that people here can't really make a difference in this particular care, and are not the people being paid for this.

[(Anonymous)]

The fact that you and many others in this thread seem to believe that the only ways to portray gay Dumbledore are "Nicholas Sparks movie, but gay" or "hardcore gay pornography" or "lisping yet abstinent Dumbledore in Daisy Dukes and gay pride flag crop top" says a lot more about you than about the ~loud complainers~ who dare be dissatisfied with the scraps that are thrown at them.

[jadeile]

But I didn't say any of that? I literally said that "Gay people are regular-ass people who just happen to not find the opposite gender attractive", hence why I'm baffled as to how people figure he should somehow blatantly showcase his sexual orientation. And I said that people should give examples of it if they actually know of a way to do it. Because I sure don't personally know how to do it, as I have never met a gay man who somehow exuded his gayness for everyone to see (or maybe I just don't pick the signals cos it's not relevant to me). So if I were to do a movie (somehow without research for the sake of this argument) the character would be just like everyone else but just happen to also be gay, which may or may not show all that much unless it was relevant to the plot or I could think of a way to drop a hint somehow. That's it. I never said how Dumbledore should be portrayed.