fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #569 ]

[ SECRET POST #569 ]

⌈ Secret Post #569 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

FS Layout Contest. Contest entries close August 10th!

Little early today, might be late with edits. Fleshbag exoskeleton is giving out on me.

Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 455 secrets from Secret Submission Post #082.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

The list of counters shouldn't be depressing; it should be intriguing! Debating stuff like this is a big reason why I'm in fandom. :)

I think the issues with possession behavior could be due to two reasons: 1. We don't see when she first possesses Edea. Perhaps the effects we witness with Rinoa happened with her at first too, until Ultimecia's control over her slipped completely into place. 2. Rinoa could be fighting the possession, making it not go as smoothly and be unnoticable like it was with Edea.

As far as Ultimecia's motivation goes, I do think a big chunk of it is Square just not caring. I mean, look at Necron from FFIX. At least we saw Ultimecia at some point before her big final battle. I also think that her motivation isn't important to the story in the big picture, and that we know enough of it to know what matters. "Reflect on your childhood" echoes of Squall to me. He's the one that had issues letting go of his past, specifically of his childhood, not Rinoa. I think it's meant to be a contrast to him and how he's grown.

I chalk the wing parallels up to contrasting rather than comparing. I think they're meant to be polar opposites of each other, not flipsides of the same person. And yeah, I did counter the castle location thing in my list.

Personally, the thing that bothers me the most about the idea is Rinoa going insane. Sure, people change, but to go insane over the loss of Squall? To completely abandon everything she believed in and taught to him? I think she's a much tougher cookie than that. We do actually know where in the future she comes from: "Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A
sorceress many generations ahead of our time." Edea says that. They'd have to have at least much extended lifespans for the theory to work, but they don't.

It would tie Ultimecia in tighter than before, yes, but at the sacrifice of Rinoa's characterization. I honestly can't see her giving up all her ideals like that. Even if she loses Squall. Especially if she loses Squall - her whole message was to accept the risk of loss to be able to enjoy love and life. Her becoming that twisted and vengeful... it just pings wrong with me.

I think there's a fundamental difference between the world where time was being compressed and the bodies of people from the future were appearing and the world where time was falling back into place and times were all present, but as distinct pockets. Of course, there's no real way to prove that one, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. The idea of Rinoa knowing who Ultimecia was... like I mentioned before, it seems so out-of-character to me that I just reject it instinctually. It doesn't fit with what we know of her at all.

You got me on the accent thing. I don't know Japanese, so I can only go by translated canon. Plus, I'm a fan of Woolseyisms most of the time, so strike two against me there, I guess. :)

If she knows what will happen, and is behaving accordingly, she knows the SeeDs will kill her, the sorceress that threatens to compress time. Why follow history's course, then? She'd have to shake things up somewhere if she wants the outcome to be different. And if she'd already mixed it up somewhere, then there were no guarantees that Squall wouldn't miss Rinoa by a hair in that existence. She either knows all the outcomes, and thus knows she'll fail but keeps going anyway for some reason, or she can't be sure that they'll all work out the same way, in which case the risks are there and not neglible.

I agree that not everything has to have a happy ending - most of the things I fangirl over end woefully less blissful than FFVIII. I've actually spent a lot of time asking myself why FFVIII appeals to me so much when it has such a standard happy ending. It's not that I prefer depressing endings either. It's just that sometimes they're the only thing that suits the canon. And that's what I'm most focused on: whether or not the ending fits the story. I'm not saying FFVIII needs a happy ending. I think it could've worked just as well with Squall dying, or Rinoa dying, and the other living on with sorrow, but also in memorium. But her going insane over the loss of him? It doesn't fit. I have no doubt that she'd do most anything (I say most because I think Rinoa's too kind-hearted to sacrifice, say, the whole world just for him) to save him, to find him, to stay with him, but if he dies, that's a far different matter from him being in peril. She's dealt with death before. I'm sure at some point in her life, she'll have to deal with it again, and if it's Squall, it'll hurt her to be sure, but she accepts that pain as necessary to having had the love they did. I said there would be a bitter taste left in your mouth, but I was referring not to the overall happiness of the ending, but to how that would ruin everything the game'd been about up until then. I object not to the happiness, but to the suitability.

I dislike arguments that say she changed a lot appearance-wise to become Ultimecia because it's like arguing for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Saying you can't disprove it doesn't count as proof towards it - it means absolutely nothing, and we're right back to square one. No offense meant to Pastafarians, of course. The same thing goes with the Griever argument. The most logical backstories to me would be that they're legendary beasts that have always existed (see especially Odin), or that at some point in history, the people of that world created them to be used in battle, and that idea's stretching it a bit, I'd say. We're given absolutely no reason to believe GFs are made from people in FFVIII, so why should we? There's no canon basis for it, not even an inkling. In fact, we know from Squall's jewelry combined with Griever's scan data that he must've existed before the start of the game, so there's actually evidence to the contrary in canon. I'm all for theorizing, but there should be something in canon that spurs the theory, not just the fact that it's in the Final Fantasy series. The worlds are mostly unconnected, and as far as we know, VIII and X aren't even in the same universe. Now, VII and X are, and VIII and III might be, but that's another set of theories entirely...

I think we're always going to have to agree to disagree on some of these things. I guess my secret is just because I'm genuinely bothered when I'm told I interpreted the game incorrectly -- sometimes by people who vehemently refuse to believe that Laguna is Squall's father.

I'm not trying to argue you into believing here, to clarify -- I'm just trying to give you some of the reasons I buy into the theory, as well as the reasons I'm sure other people do, so you get where we're coming from. The thing I love most about FF8 is actually how understated everything is. We're never told outright that Laguna is Squall's father, but the information is there. Admittedly, it's pretty much confirmed canon, as opposed to R=U, but I don't see a problem with drawing the parallel. We're never told outright that Irvine isn't actually a SeeD, even, which is a minute detail, but it makes theorizing nuts like me happy, because it gives us breathing room.

And I understand that "you can't disprove it" doesn't mean it's true. Haha, honestly, I do. I'm, again, just trying to give you some of the talking points I know I've been over with the (small) group of friends who (secretly) agree with me on the theory, so you can maybe see that we're not all nutjobs who just like Rinoa being a nut for the sake of Rinoa being a nut.

A lot of the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory buys into things that are only said in canon if you hunt carefully for them. The concept of a sorceress' knight being more than just a metaphor, for example, and the consequences of a sorceress being without one. A friend (the same one who brought up the "feedback" concept) mentioned that she wondered if Adel was so completely inhuman because she didn't have a knight, and I think that's a real possibility. Even the Hyne legend ties into it quite a bit, and that's one that even I am sure I've missed bits and pieces of, even though I have the game practically memorized.

I haven't actually always bought into this theory, either. Not to say you'll start buying into it -- to each his own! -- but I used to find the concept quite ridiculous and stupid, and then I played the game again, and read a few theories that got my brain stirring ...

A lot of the concept also works on the idea of time loops, which are something so theoretical that it's hard to nail down even from person to person. Ultimecia would go through with it because in "her" world, she didn't exist, or she wasn't defeated ... but when the time loop is created, her past self and future self come together, and that's where it gets messy. Time Compression on the whole makes almost no sense unless you have somewhere approaching a doctorate in physics (which, may I note, I don't), and time on the whole is something that no one really understands, even though it's brought up as a concept in many kinds of media -- I'm replaying the Prince of Persia PS2 games right now, for instance, and there is, of course, Chrono Trigger.

SO, basically, minus the tl;dr: I think we're never going to agree on this one, and I was aware of that when I wrote my first couple of comments. I just wanted to give you some insight to where people like me do stand, so we seem maybe a little less crazy /o/

I'll skip the tl;dr this time and just chat. :D Argh, people who deny that Laguna is Squall's father tend to confuse me. That one's there in spades. You'd have to do more ignoring than extrapolating to avoid that plot point. Thanks for laying your points out so nicely, though. A lot of the people I'd talked to before who bought into R=U basically said they believed it because the game sucked without it, and that always bothered me. You seem to genuinely love the game with or without it. That sort of person, that's who I want to discuss this stuff with. :) I'm with you on the confusion of playing with time, though I must say, I've known a lot of people with doctorates in Physics - they're not all they're cracked up to be. XD

Side note - Chrono Trigger sure is fantastic, yeah? <3

So you mention Necron from FFIX, but he actually is mentioned and given a role in the story. Necron is the Iifa tree; it's essence, the part of it that allows it to filter and block souls, the part that wasn't destroyed when Zidane first killed it. It was the tool placed there by Garland (which is why its face resembles those in Oeilvert). When you fight Necron, you are dead and it's trying to put your souls through the usual process - that's why you see Necron rather than the tree, all of a sudden. Kuja literally brings you back to life.

Ah, I'd forgotten that connection! I only remembered him popping up after Kuja and me being surprised that Kuja wasn't the final boss. Sorry about that - it's been years since I last played IX.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #569 ]

Re: 112 op returns

And part two! XD

112 op, again

Re: 112 op, again

FFIX Geek jumping in here

Re: FFIX Geek jumping in here