Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-07-27 04:56 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-07-27 04:56 pm
[ SECRET POST #569 ]
⌈ Secret Post #569 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
FS Layout Contest. Contest entries close August 10th!
Little early today, might be late with edits. Fleshbag exoskeleton is giving out on me.
Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 455 secrets from Secret Submission Post #082.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
112 op returns
(Anonymous) 2008-07-28 10:18 am (UTC)(link)Re: Rinoa and Ultimecia not being able to be the same person: I don't think this works, exactly, because at the time Squall met his younger self, time was still compressed. That's how he ended up there; he thought of the field, but he couldn't ground the time, so time compression dumped him in the wrong place.
Additionally, if you buy into the theory the way I do, Rinoa was aware of who Ultimecia was. This comes up when you first hit time compression, and she says she's afraid of disappearing. It's possible she means "because I'm not one of you," as in the SeeDs, but it's also possible that she means Ultimecia will overwrite her. Besides that, in time compression, no one except Ultimecia is supposed to exist; but we see that the SeeDs manage to pull through, so there are clearly exceptions.
Regarding the accent: I don't like talking about the accent because it was entirely invented by a translator. It didn't exist in the original version. Somebody was playing Woolsey that day and decided to have the brilliant concept (koncept?) of replacing Ultimecia's hard cs with ks. It wasn't actually there in the original version, and she had no similar speech accent that would have been changed to that (like how Fujin was changed from kanji-only to ONE-WORD. CAPITALS. SENTENCES.) It was entirely invented by the translator. Ultimecia spoke normally in the original version of the game.
More:
Ultimecia, in her time, is insane. Whether you buy the R=U theory or not. You make a lot of arguments that "why would she deprive her past self of time with Squall," but I think you're missing the point. To Ultimecia, that's already happened. It doesn't bother her doing it when it has already happened to her. She threw herself into space -- because she knew Squall would come to save her. Why did it matter to her? She knows what happens, and she knows that her past self will live, which allows her current self to exist.
I mean, honestly, Ultimecia is a person of the future. Even if she's not Rinoa, she probably has chronicled the events of the past. Read history books. That library has to be for more than show. She knows what happens. Why wouldn't she take those chances when she knows their results already?
She couldn't use herself to complete Time Compression because the memory didn't stretch far back enough. This isn't confirmed, but it's probably why Ellone placed her in Young Adel's mind -- Ultimecia needs to reach back before she existed to compress time. She probably tried it with her own memories, and it doesn't work.
Additionally, not everything has to have a happy ending, and I'm bothered by that being one of your counters to the theory. I love the ending of FF8 -- I cry every time -- and I do believe it's beautiful, but why can't you take that in conjunction with the R=U concept -- or at least understand the people who do? We're not trying to ruin the message of the game, we're expanding on it. Squall did some outright dumb shit to save Rinoa, because he was in love with her. He dove out into space with limited air and fuel just for the chance that he would catch her. In space. Why wouldn't Rinoa try to find him again, after he's taken so many chances for her?
Rinoa and Ultimecia currently bear only a passing resemblance, I will give you that -- but Rinoa is also seventeen. Edea, if you buy into the "young forever" thing, has stopped aging somewhere in her late twenties. Everyone grows and changes a bit from 17 to 27. You thin out or fill out, your body shape changes, you get taller or shorter. And if you don't buy into the "young forever" thing, it makes even more sense -- Rinoa has just aged to the point that we wouldn't recognize her instantly.
I don't buy into the Squall=Griever theory (it takes away what Rinoa is trying to get back), but I think to write it off as "FFVIII is not FFX" is doing a disservice of what we have seen in the game. We don't know where GFs do come from. Why is thinking that a person could become one such a long shot?
Re: 112 op returns
I think the issues with possession behavior could be due to two reasons: 1. We don't see when she first possesses Edea. Perhaps the effects we witness with Rinoa happened with her at first too, until Ultimecia's control over her slipped completely into place. 2. Rinoa could be fighting the possession, making it not go as smoothly and be unnoticable like it was with Edea.
As far as Ultimecia's motivation goes, I do think a big chunk of it is Square just not caring. I mean, look at Necron from FFIX. At least we saw Ultimecia at some point before her big final battle. I also think that her motivation isn't important to the story in the big picture, and that we know enough of it to know what matters. "Reflect on your childhood" echoes of Squall to me. He's the one that had issues letting go of his past, specifically of his childhood, not Rinoa. I think it's meant to be a contrast to him and how he's grown.
I chalk the wing parallels up to contrasting rather than comparing. I think they're meant to be polar opposites of each other, not flipsides of the same person. And yeah, I did counter the castle location thing in my list.
Personally, the thing that bothers me the most about the idea is Rinoa going insane. Sure, people change, but to go insane over the loss of Squall? To completely abandon everything she believed in and taught to him? I think she's a much tougher cookie than that. We do actually know where in the future she comes from: "Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A
sorceress many generations ahead of our time." Edea says that. They'd have to have at least much extended lifespans for the theory to work, but they don't.
It would tie Ultimecia in tighter than before, yes, but at the sacrifice of Rinoa's characterization. I honestly can't see her giving up all her ideals like that. Even if she loses Squall. Especially if she loses Squall - her whole message was to accept the risk of loss to be able to enjoy love and life. Her becoming that twisted and vengeful... it just pings wrong with me.
I think there's a fundamental difference between the world where time was being compressed and the bodies of people from the future were appearing and the world where time was falling back into place and times were all present, but as distinct pockets. Of course, there's no real way to prove that one, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. The idea of Rinoa knowing who Ultimecia was... like I mentioned before, it seems so out-of-character to me that I just reject it instinctually. It doesn't fit with what we know of her at all.
You got me on the accent thing. I don't know Japanese, so I can only go by translated canon. Plus, I'm a fan of Woolseyisms most of the time, so strike two against me there, I guess. :)
If she knows what will happen, and is behaving accordingly, she knows the SeeDs will kill her, the sorceress that threatens to compress time. Why follow history's course, then? She'd have to shake things up somewhere if she wants the outcome to be different. And if she'd already mixed it up somewhere, then there were no guarantees that Squall wouldn't miss Rinoa by a hair in that existence. She either knows all the outcomes, and thus knows she'll fail but keeps going anyway for some reason, or she can't be sure that they'll all work out the same way, in which case the risks are there and not neglible.
And part two! XD
I dislike arguments that say she changed a lot appearance-wise to become Ultimecia because it's like arguing for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Saying you can't disprove it doesn't count as proof towards it - it means absolutely nothing, and we're right back to square one. No offense meant to Pastafarians, of course. The same thing goes with the Griever argument. The most logical backstories to me would be that they're legendary beasts that have always existed (see especially Odin), or that at some point in history, the people of that world created them to be used in battle, and that idea's stretching it a bit, I'd say. We're given absolutely no reason to believe GFs are made from people in FFVIII, so why should we? There's no canon basis for it, not even an inkling. In fact, we know from Squall's jewelry combined with Griever's scan data that he must've existed before the start of the game, so there's actually evidence to the contrary in canon. I'm all for theorizing, but there should be something in canon that spurs the theory, not just the fact that it's in the Final Fantasy series. The worlds are mostly unconnected, and as far as we know, VIII and X aren't even in the same universe. Now, VII and X are, and VIII and III might be, but that's another set of theories entirely...
112 op, again
(Anonymous) 2008-07-29 12:30 pm (UTC)(link)I'm not trying to argue you into believing here, to clarify -- I'm just trying to give you some of the reasons I buy into the theory, as well as the reasons I'm sure other people do, so you get where we're coming from. The thing I love most about FF8 is actually how understated everything is. We're never told outright that Laguna is Squall's father, but the information is there. Admittedly, it's pretty much confirmed canon, as opposed to R=U, but I don't see a problem with drawing the parallel. We're never told outright that Irvine isn't actually a SeeD, even, which is a minute detail, but it makes theorizing nuts like me happy, because it gives us breathing room.
And I understand that "you can't disprove it" doesn't mean it's true. Haha, honestly, I do. I'm, again, just trying to give you some of the talking points I know I've been over with the (small) group of friends who (secretly) agree with me on the theory, so you can maybe see that we're not all nutjobs who just like Rinoa being a nut for the sake of Rinoa being a nut.
A lot of the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory buys into things that are only said in canon if you hunt carefully for them. The concept of a sorceress' knight being more than just a metaphor, for example, and the consequences of a sorceress being without one. A friend (the same one who brought up the "feedback" concept) mentioned that she wondered if Adel was so completely inhuman because she didn't have a knight, and I think that's a real possibility. Even the Hyne legend ties into it quite a bit, and that's one that even I am sure I've missed bits and pieces of, even though I have the game practically memorized.
I haven't actually always bought into this theory, either. Not to say you'll start buying into it -- to each his own! -- but I used to find the concept quite ridiculous and stupid, and then I played the game again, and read a few theories that got my brain stirring ...
A lot of the concept also works on the idea of time loops, which are something so theoretical that it's hard to nail down even from person to person. Ultimecia would go through with it because in "her" world, she didn't exist, or she wasn't defeated ... but when the time loop is created, her past self and future self come together, and that's where it gets messy. Time Compression on the whole makes almost no sense unless you have somewhere approaching a doctorate in physics (which, may I note, I don't), and time on the whole is something that no one really understands, even though it's brought up as a concept in many kinds of media -- I'm replaying the Prince of Persia PS2 games right now, for instance, and there is, of course, Chrono Trigger.
SO, basically, minus the tl;dr: I think we're never going to agree on this one, and I was aware of that when I wrote my first couple of comments. I just wanted to give you some insight to where people like me do stand, so we seem maybe a little less crazy /o/
Re: 112 op, again
Side note - Chrono Trigger sure is fantastic, yeah? <3
FFIX Geek jumping in here
Re: FFIX Geek jumping in here