fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #569 ]

[ SECRET POST #569 ]

⌈ Secret Post #569 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

FS Layout Contest. Contest entries close August 10th!

Little early today, might be late with edits. Fleshbag exoskeleton is giving out on me.

Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 455 secrets from Secret Submission Post #082.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

105. Home Movies! You win just for making a secret that includes McGuirk.
106. I love it too. Honestly, I think their interactions are the only reason I'm still reading QC.
109. Dang, you played that game at age 7? Where were your parents, young lady? Anyway, that's really cute. I adore her, but I've never gone as far as acting out her scenes. You = adorable.
112. It's not supposed to be canon. Square said it's not. I have no problem with you using it as your fanon, but believing it's supposed to be canon is flat out wrong. Now, I'm strongly against that theory (my obsession, let me show it to you (http://love.rinoaheartilly.net/succession.php)), so I'm curious - what hints do you see, and what do you like about the concept?
141. That original secret is just revolting. I can't begin to comprehend how ugly inside a person must be to feel that way.
143. Why? No really, I'm not being snarky; just like with 112, I'm curious. Why video games in particular? What's inherently wrong with them?
178. Argilla begs to differ. >:\
188. I like you. :D

That's an AMAZING list of counters *_*. I tried to do the same for my site, but the best counter I came up with was that Rinoa becoming Ultimecia just didn't fit the triumphant, happy tone of the end XD

Thank you! The whole idea just didn't sit right with me - I'm glad someone else felt the same way about that.

Ten Internets say it's either the New Media Are Evil thing or ZOMG TEHY R MURDAR SIMULATARS WON'T SUMWUN TINK O'DA CHILDRENS!11!!

Why yes I am a cranky gamer who's had it entirely up to here with the videogame hate. They're no more evil or pointless than any other artform.

Very likely. I was hoping the OP might have some new reason I hadn't heard yet, just for variety's sake, but you're probably right.

I'm right there with you. When I was little, I read fiction and non-fiction, watched movies and tv, and played both board and video games. I dabbled in everything. As I've grown up, I've favored video games more and more. Really, it's a fantastic and very misunderstood medium.

Truly, some stories couldn't be told properly in any other medium, just as some stories need to be film or sequential art or whatever. Skies of Arcadia leaps to mind for me, and from what I've heard of the Metal Gear Solid series, it seems to hold for them, too.

Ah well. We'll just have to keep up the 'hey wait' prodding until the rest of society catches up to where gamers have been for some time now in understanding that it's not just kid's play. Although that's a bone I have with gamers at large a lot of the time - gimme more family (that is, games everyone can enjoy) games. Not because I want kids, but because I like cute things as much as I like my Super Gore Death Explosion 3000 type games. Yoshi's Story is awesome, dammit.

...Anyway, I see quite a similarity in some respects between how videogames and animation is seen in the West. Maybe by the time we can get some non-kiddy and non-family animation produced over here without idiots flipping out because clearly animated things is for teh tots, games will be more accepted as a diverse and versatile medium, too.

Oh, agreed completely, both with respect to games and animation. The first example that popped into my head for games that utilize the medium well is Silent Hill, especially the first two. It's hard if not impossible to recreate the feeling of those games without having the player in control of the main character. The case of the first game is especially pronounced, given how the movie turned out. Say what you will about the story (and boy, is there a lot to say), but the art direction was spot-on, and yet it just didn't evoke the same horror, the same unsettling gnaw that made the game so damn memorable.

I'm a big fan of cute and "casual gamer" games too, just as much as I am of "hardcore gamer" games. Lately, I've been bouncing between No More Heroes, The World Ends With You, Persona 3: FES, WiiFit, Super Mario Galaxy, Rocket Slime... variety's the spice of life, right? Why eat bland?

I'm thinking it's more likely to be a "I'm terrible at them, so they suck!" type of thing. Well, I'm terrible at them and still love them.

See, everyone gives me a list of counters like that when I even mention liking the theory. It's depressing :/

It's hard to sum up everything I see that hints at it. Rinoa's speech aboard the Ragnarok about how she just wants time to stand still; the fact that Ultimecia's possession of her is completely unlike every other possession we see in the game -- Edea didn't give off the faded after-image, nor did she glow like Rinoa does on the space station. Her movements weren't jerky and puppetlike while she was possessed. A friend who does like this theory brought this point up, actually, before I'd thought of it, and mentioned that it might be some form of feedback, which I actually really like the concept of.

We're never given a reason for Ultimecia wanting to abridge time. I don't think, even if she was Rinoa, that it's as simple as wanting to find a probably-dead Squall. I think there's other factors behind it; Rinoa's life hasn't been the greatest in the world, and she'd have every reason to want to suspend it. The most information we're given about Time Compression is that it would make Ultimecia all-powerful. Odine even says, "We don't know why she'd want to do this, so let's not think about it." The game makes a point of avoiding giving you any reason. Admittedly, this is probably just Square and the case of the approaching deadline, but it gives some ground.

The wing parallels are too pronounced and significant to be ignored. Every sorceress we've seen seems to have some defining, almost animalistic feature -- Edea has her bird mask, and her movements are even somewhat avian. Adel has antenna hair. Why would there be such a similarity in Rinoa and Ultimecia?

And this is probably on your list of counters, but I genuinely believe there has to be more reason to Ultimecia's castle being built over Edea's field than just as a symbol of victory.

I approach this theory a bit differently from most people, actually -- I kind of buy into this "time loop" theory I've seen discussed and ficced once or twice. In some world, somewhere out there, something happens to Squall -- most likely, he gets trapped or lost in Time Compression, at the end of the game, and he never returns. This drives Rinoa insane, she gradually becomes Ultimecia. (May I also point out, it's never mentioned how far in the future Ultimecia lives? Just a thought. Sorceresses don't necessarily have to be immortal for this theory to work.) She forces herself through time compression trying to reverse what happened to Squall, and even though she dies in the process, it somehow works -- and then we see the ending of the game that happens "for real."

I like the concept because it ties Ultimecia into the main plot much better than she was before. It explains why her possession of Rinoa is so completely strange compared to that of Edea. It explains Griever. It gives Ultimecia's last speech, in her final form, tons more weight, if you interpret it as coming from a future, warped Rinoa.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said canon, but "headcanon" is closer to what matches. I'm aware Square said no, but I see too many hints and possibilities to dismiss it entirely.

Additionally, some of the counters you have, I actually have counters to.

Re: Rinoa and Ultimecia not being able to be the same person: I don't think this works, exactly, because at the time Squall met his younger self, time was still compressed. That's how he ended up there; he thought of the field, but he couldn't ground the time, so time compression dumped him in the wrong place.

Additionally, if you buy into the theory the way I do, Rinoa was aware of who Ultimecia was. This comes up when you first hit time compression, and she says she's afraid of disappearing. It's possible she means "because I'm not one of you," as in the SeeDs, but it's also possible that she means Ultimecia will overwrite her. Besides that, in time compression, no one except Ultimecia is supposed to exist; but we see that the SeeDs manage to pull through, so there are clearly exceptions.

Regarding the accent: I don't like talking about the accent because it was entirely invented by a translator. It didn't exist in the original version. Somebody was playing Woolsey that day and decided to have the brilliant concept (koncept?) of replacing Ultimecia's hard cs with ks. It wasn't actually there in the original version, and she had no similar speech accent that would have been changed to that (like how Fujin was changed from kanji-only to ONE-WORD. CAPITALS. SENTENCES.) It was entirely invented by the translator. Ultimecia spoke normally in the original version of the game.

More:

Ultimecia, in her time, is insane. Whether you buy the R=U theory or not. You make a lot of arguments that "why would she deprive her past self of time with Squall," but I think you're missing the point. To Ultimecia, that's already happened. It doesn't bother her doing it when it has already happened to her. She threw herself into space -- because she knew Squall would come to save her. Why did it matter to her? She knows what happens, and she knows that her past self will live, which allows her current self to exist.

I mean, honestly, Ultimecia is a person of the future. Even if she's not Rinoa, she probably has chronicled the events of the past. Read history books. That library has to be for more than show. She knows what happens. Why wouldn't she take those chances when she knows their results already?

She couldn't use herself to complete Time Compression because the memory didn't stretch far back enough. This isn't confirmed, but it's probably why Ellone placed her in Young Adel's mind -- Ultimecia needs to reach back before she existed to compress time. She probably tried it with her own memories, and it doesn't work.

Additionally, not everything has to have a happy ending, and I'm bothered by that being one of your counters to the theory. I love the ending of FF8 -- I cry every time -- and I do believe it's beautiful, but why can't you take that in conjunction with the R=U concept -- or at least understand the people who do? We're not trying to ruin the message of the game, we're expanding on it. Squall did some outright dumb shit to save Rinoa, because he was in love with her. He dove out into space with limited air and fuel just for the chance that he would catch her. In space. Why wouldn't Rinoa try to find him again, after he's taken so many chances for her?

Rinoa and Ultimecia currently bear only a passing resemblance, I will give you that -- but Rinoa is also seventeen. Edea, if you buy into the "young forever" thing, has stopped aging somewhere in her late twenties. Everyone grows and changes a bit from 17 to 27. You thin out or fill out, your body shape changes, you get taller or shorter. And if you don't buy into the "young forever" thing, it makes even more sense -- Rinoa has just aged to the point that we wouldn't recognize her instantly.

I don't buy into the Squall=Griever theory (it takes away what Rinoa is trying to get back), but I think to write it off as "FFVIII is not FFX" is doing a disservice of what we have seen in the game. We don't know where GFs do come from. Why is thinking that a person could become one such a long shot?

The list of counters shouldn't be depressing; it should be intriguing! Debating stuff like this is a big reason why I'm in fandom. :)

I think the issues with possession behavior could be due to two reasons: 1. We don't see when she first possesses Edea. Perhaps the effects we witness with Rinoa happened with her at first too, until Ultimecia's control over her slipped completely into place. 2. Rinoa could be fighting the possession, making it not go as smoothly and be unnoticable like it was with Edea.

As far as Ultimecia's motivation goes, I do think a big chunk of it is Square just not caring. I mean, look at Necron from FFIX. At least we saw Ultimecia at some point before her big final battle. I also think that her motivation isn't important to the story in the big picture, and that we know enough of it to know what matters. "Reflect on your childhood" echoes of Squall to me. He's the one that had issues letting go of his past, specifically of his childhood, not Rinoa. I think it's meant to be a contrast to him and how he's grown.

I chalk the wing parallels up to contrasting rather than comparing. I think they're meant to be polar opposites of each other, not flipsides of the same person. And yeah, I did counter the castle location thing in my list.

Personally, the thing that bothers me the most about the idea is Rinoa going insane. Sure, people change, but to go insane over the loss of Squall? To completely abandon everything she believed in and taught to him? I think she's a much tougher cookie than that. We do actually know where in the future she comes from: "Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A
sorceress many generations ahead of our time." Edea says that. They'd have to have at least much extended lifespans for the theory to work, but they don't.

It would tie Ultimecia in tighter than before, yes, but at the sacrifice of Rinoa's characterization. I honestly can't see her giving up all her ideals like that. Even if she loses Squall. Especially if she loses Squall - her whole message was to accept the risk of loss to be able to enjoy love and life. Her becoming that twisted and vengeful... it just pings wrong with me.

I think there's a fundamental difference between the world where time was being compressed and the bodies of people from the future were appearing and the world where time was falling back into place and times were all present, but as distinct pockets. Of course, there's no real way to prove that one, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. The idea of Rinoa knowing who Ultimecia was... like I mentioned before, it seems so out-of-character to me that I just reject it instinctually. It doesn't fit with what we know of her at all.

You got me on the accent thing. I don't know Japanese, so I can only go by translated canon. Plus, I'm a fan of Woolseyisms most of the time, so strike two against me there, I guess. :)

If she knows what will happen, and is behaving accordingly, she knows the SeeDs will kill her, the sorceress that threatens to compress time. Why follow history's course, then? She'd have to shake things up somewhere if she wants the outcome to be different. And if she'd already mixed it up somewhere, then there were no guarantees that Squall wouldn't miss Rinoa by a hair in that existence. She either knows all the outcomes, and thus knows she'll fail but keeps going anyway for some reason, or she can't be sure that they'll all work out the same way, in which case the risks are there and not neglible.

I agree that not everything has to have a happy ending - most of the things I fangirl over end woefully less blissful than FFVIII. I've actually spent a lot of time asking myself why FFVIII appeals to me so much when it has such a standard happy ending. It's not that I prefer depressing endings either. It's just that sometimes they're the only thing that suits the canon. And that's what I'm most focused on: whether or not the ending fits the story. I'm not saying FFVIII needs a happy ending. I think it could've worked just as well with Squall dying, or Rinoa dying, and the other living on with sorrow, but also in memorium. But her going insane over the loss of him? It doesn't fit. I have no doubt that she'd do most anything (I say most because I think Rinoa's too kind-hearted to sacrifice, say, the whole world just for him) to save him, to find him, to stay with him, but if he dies, that's a far different matter from him being in peril. She's dealt with death before. I'm sure at some point in her life, she'll have to deal with it again, and if it's Squall, it'll hurt her to be sure, but she accepts that pain as necessary to having had the love they did. I said there would be a bitter taste left in your mouth, but I was referring not to the overall happiness of the ending, but to how that would ruin everything the game'd been about up until then. I object not to the happiness, but to the suitability.

I dislike arguments that say she changed a lot appearance-wise to become Ultimecia because it's like arguing for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Saying you can't disprove it doesn't count as proof towards it - it means absolutely nothing, and we're right back to square one. No offense meant to Pastafarians, of course. The same thing goes with the Griever argument. The most logical backstories to me would be that they're legendary beasts that have always existed (see especially Odin), or that at some point in history, the people of that world created them to be used in battle, and that idea's stretching it a bit, I'd say. We're given absolutely no reason to believe GFs are made from people in FFVIII, so why should we? There's no canon basis for it, not even an inkling. In fact, we know from Squall's jewelry combined with Griever's scan data that he must've existed before the start of the game, so there's actually evidence to the contrary in canon. I'm all for theorizing, but there should be something in canon that spurs the theory, not just the fact that it's in the Final Fantasy series. The worlds are mostly unconnected, and as far as we know, VIII and X aren't even in the same universe. Now, VII and X are, and VIII and III might be, but that's another set of theories entirely...

I think we're always going to have to agree to disagree on some of these things. I guess my secret is just because I'm genuinely bothered when I'm told I interpreted the game incorrectly -- sometimes by people who vehemently refuse to believe that Laguna is Squall's father.

I'm not trying to argue you into believing here, to clarify -- I'm just trying to give you some of the reasons I buy into the theory, as well as the reasons I'm sure other people do, so you get where we're coming from. The thing I love most about FF8 is actually how understated everything is. We're never told outright that Laguna is Squall's father, but the information is there. Admittedly, it's pretty much confirmed canon, as opposed to R=U, but I don't see a problem with drawing the parallel. We're never told outright that Irvine isn't actually a SeeD, even, which is a minute detail, but it makes theorizing nuts like me happy, because it gives us breathing room.

And I understand that "you can't disprove it" doesn't mean it's true. Haha, honestly, I do. I'm, again, just trying to give you some of the talking points I know I've been over with the (small) group of friends who (secretly) agree with me on the theory, so you can maybe see that we're not all nutjobs who just like Rinoa being a nut for the sake of Rinoa being a nut.

A lot of the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory buys into things that are only said in canon if you hunt carefully for them. The concept of a sorceress' knight being more than just a metaphor, for example, and the consequences of a sorceress being without one. A friend (the same one who brought up the "feedback" concept) mentioned that she wondered if Adel was so completely inhuman because she didn't have a knight, and I think that's a real possibility. Even the Hyne legend ties into it quite a bit, and that's one that even I am sure I've missed bits and pieces of, even though I have the game practically memorized.

I haven't actually always bought into this theory, either. Not to say you'll start buying into it -- to each his own! -- but I used to find the concept quite ridiculous and stupid, and then I played the game again, and read a few theories that got my brain stirring ...

A lot of the concept also works on the idea of time loops, which are something so theoretical that it's hard to nail down even from person to person. Ultimecia would go through with it because in "her" world, she didn't exist, or she wasn't defeated ... but when the time loop is created, her past self and future self come together, and that's where it gets messy. Time Compression on the whole makes almost no sense unless you have somewhere approaching a doctorate in physics (which, may I note, I don't), and time on the whole is something that no one really understands, even though it's brought up as a concept in many kinds of media -- I'm replaying the Prince of Persia PS2 games right now, for instance, and there is, of course, Chrono Trigger.

SO, basically, minus the tl;dr: I think we're never going to agree on this one, and I was aware of that when I wrote my first couple of comments. I just wanted to give you some insight to where people like me do stand, so we seem maybe a little less crazy /o/

I'll skip the tl;dr this time and just chat. :D Argh, people who deny that Laguna is Squall's father tend to confuse me. That one's there in spades. You'd have to do more ignoring than extrapolating to avoid that plot point. Thanks for laying your points out so nicely, though. A lot of the people I'd talked to before who bought into R=U basically said they believed it because the game sucked without it, and that always bothered me. You seem to genuinely love the game with or without it. That sort of person, that's who I want to discuss this stuff with. :) I'm with you on the confusion of playing with time, though I must say, I've known a lot of people with doctorates in Physics - they're not all they're cracked up to be. XD

Side note - Chrono Trigger sure is fantastic, yeah? <3

So you mention Necron from FFIX, but he actually is mentioned and given a role in the story. Necron is the Iifa tree; it's essence, the part of it that allows it to filter and block souls, the part that wasn't destroyed when Zidane first killed it. It was the tool placed there by Garland (which is why its face resembles those in Oeilvert). When you fight Necron, you are dead and it's trying to put your souls through the usual process - that's why you see Necron rather than the tree, all of a sudden. Kuja literally brings you back to life.

Ah, I'd forgotten that connection! I only remembered him popping up after Kuja and me being surprised that Kuja wasn't the final boss. Sorry about that - it's been years since I last played IX.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #569 ]

105, 106, 109, 112, 141, 143, 178, 188

Re: 112

Re: 112

143

Re: 143

Re: 143

Re: 143

Re: 143

112 op

112 op returns

Re: 112 op returns

And part two! XD

112 op, again

Re: 112 op, again

FFIX Geek jumping in here

Re: FFIX Geek jumping in here