fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4201 ]

[ SECRET POST #4201 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4201 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Sophie Turner, from Game of Thrones]

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03.

(Hindustan Times)

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04.

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05.

[Philip Quast in "Ultraviolet"]

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06.

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07.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 07 secrets from Secret Submission Post #601.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Apparently many kids these days have far more respect for their friends' special occasions and understanding of social etiquette than 60+ year old women then...

But the vast majority of coverage I've seen from this wedding has been on this particular guest rather than the couple themselves, so "Ms Turner" certainly knows what she was doing.

Why, bless your heart, aren't you sweet? Oh, wait, you thought you'd embarrass me?

*snort*

The vast majority of coverage from the wedding is on a guest's dress? Isn't that special....

Way to miss the point of my comment entirely. I don't care enough about you to try to embarrass you. I was simply observing that age has nothing to do with it, despite your earlier insinuation that many of us "children" are far more prudish than your "hip" self. Some of us know how to behave at social functions no matter how young we are.

And, no, I wouldn't call deliberately calling media attention to oneself as a guest "special" at all. I'd call it pretty damn rude and selfish.

Well, here's where we can disagree fairly soberly, and I'll drop the snark. I did suggest that many people in generations younger than mine do appear to me to be more ... since you used the word "prudish," I will as well. It's something I've observed in places other than fandom secrets, and I struggle to understand it, since I sincerely believe that they are adhering to norms, taboos, and expectations that people in my generation struggled to throw off. I've held conversations with my younger friends about it, and I'm still at a loss. I suppose that when people talk about a generation gap, that's what we're talking about.

For example, your comment about knowing how to behave at social functions is actually one of the things that throws me; the assumption that there are excruciatingly specific rules on dress that must be obeyed in order to have all of society eye you favorably is one to which I can't adhere. If we were to sit down together and have a beer, or a coffee, or what-have-you, we probably could chew it out in conversation.

As to coverage of the wedding, I wasn't referring to the guest deliberately calling media attention to themselves. I was actually referring to the news, fashion, and gossip magazines and websites choosing to focus on the guest rather than on the newly-married couple. I suspect that we could probably have a longer conversation about that as well, were we to meet in the 3D world.

Well, I can only speak for myself, of course, but one aspect may be intersectional feminism and a backlash against choice feminism/awareness of privilege. I do not know your race/ethnicity, economic status, etc. but implications that it should be perfectly acceptable for someone to dress however they want whenever they want without worrying about norms and taboos is very...naive about the very real consequences women (especially those with less power) do face - from society as well as other women - for not meeting those norms. Many of us younger women are dealing with a vastly different social and economic landscape and have to navigate it differently than older women. This is a larger convo obviously, because we are talking about one privileged white female celeb at another's wedding, but still. Perhaps we've also seen the lives our mothers and grandmothers led and, like every generation, decided that wasn't how we want to do things because we see negatives you don't.

Second, I at least am not talking about dressing a certain way lest you be judged by SOCIETY. I am talking about showing respect to your FRIEND/FAMILY/COLLEAGUE who invited you to THEIR special occasion. It is about personal relationships, not political statements.

As for media coverage, using tweets and blog posts is how entertainment news works today (sadly). They're still the ones generating click bait even if not using original writing to do so. And they would have nothing to build a "story" around without ST doing her own part. It's also naive to think she chose her outfit with no thought to it being photographed...

First point: I think there's a difference between being aware that some people might be judged by society and so defending their decision to make conservative choices, and being someone who actively perpetuates society's judging oneself. The commenters seem to me to fall under the category of "perpetuating society's judging" and not "defending their decision to make conservative choices" (their conservative choices to side-eye a random woman's wedding guest dress?? how does that help you, an unprivileged person, navigate a sexist society??).

Second point: It seems like you actually don't want to talk about being judged by society (the topic of your first point) and instead want to talk about how important it is to show respect for one's friends (the wedding couple) on their special day. I agree that's important. I think a bunch of strangers on the internet speculating whether Rose Leslie and Kit Harington were offended by Sophie Turner's outfit is just nosy internet concern trolling. Rose and Kit are adults perfectly capable of dealing with a guest's inappropriate or disappointing wear -- why do people feel the need to get outraged on their behalf?

It’s almost like this conversation has evolved or something. And that there might be multiple nuances and components to it. And that it’s taking place on an anonymous entertainment/fan site. And that people commonly use a public event, like a celeb wedding, to talk about their own experiences and opinions outside of the realm of that specific event. Or all of the above. Hmmm.

(no subject)

kaffy_r - 2018-07-07 19:13 (UTC) - Expand

Sorry for responding very late; working instead of being able to engage in some good, chewy, thoughtful online discussions sucks. (No, seriously.) You've said some thought-provoking things here. Let me try to give you my thoughts on some of them.

Well, I can only speak for myself, of course, but one aspect may be intersectional feminism and a backlash against choice feminism/awareness of privilege.

One of the reasons I love the internet is that it's helped me to become more aware. Intersectionality, and seeing privilege against that backdrop, makes all the sense in the world to me. I wasn't aware of the phrase "choice feminism," but just did some quick Googling (yay, internet) and I can confidently say that being a choice feminist is indeed being naive. Only white, middle-class, largely (but not completely) cishet women can afford to believe that. We do not exist in a vacuum, & thinking we can live and make decisions in that vacuum ... is not thoughtful, to put it mildly.

I'm an aging, lower-middle-class cisbi woman. I have an inordinate amount of privilege, but I do try to live my life being aware of that. And it's thanks to the internet and communities like this that I began to become aware.

Many of us younger women are dealing with a vastly different social and economic landscape and have to navigate it differently than older women.

Are we talking about the lowered economic flexibility that women have these days? Yeah, in many ways, at least economically, you folks have been cornered and driven back to where a lot of women older than I am were, back in the 50s and early 60s. And the social blow-back all women are dealing with, with newly-energized misogyny showing itself culturally and politically, is a far cry from the cautious hope I had when I was a young woman in the late 70s and early 80s.

Perhaps we've also seen the lives our mothers and grandmothers led and, like every generation, decided that wasn't how we want to do things because we see negatives you don't.

From your perspective, are there negatives that stand out for you? I ask, because you're right - sometimes one doesn't see the negatives (or positives, I suppose) that are close to us. Sort of like fish not noticing water, because they swim in it.

Second, I at least am not talking about dressing a certain way lest you be judged by SOCIETY. I am talking about showing respect to your FRIEND/FAMILY/COLLEAGUE who invited you to THEIR special occasion. It is about personal relationships, not political statements.

Ah, I wasn't being clear enough when I wrote, and I can see why you'd respond in this way. What you say here is valid; people should respect their friends and their friends' events. What I should have said is that I find the idea of equating respect for one's friend with observing those very strict social mores hard to get my head around. (Interestingly, I say this even as I realize that I changed what color I planned to wear as mother of the groom, so that I wouldn't stand out in official wedding pictures. Then again, that was because I didn't want to ruin my new daughter's pictures. A guest who isn't part of the official wedding party wouldn't have to think about things of that sort.)

Anyhow ... long response, but your response made me think, and for that, I thank you!

As a fellow old-timer... come on, lady. You're sniping at someone that's likely half your age. It's not a good look. Was it really so hard to just ignore the comment and move on?

While I thank you for your defense, I am an adult and can take snippy comments in a pointless online argument just as well as I can make them :)

ayrt

Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to come off as thinking you couldn't defend yourself. It's more the incredibly immature behavior of a woman that should have outgrown this *years* ago that bothers me, haha.

No, you're being an ageist shit. To the named user for implying that she can't have a voice in debate any more (because let's be honest, at 62 most people here will be younger than her) and to anon for assuming they're a child who needs their hand held. You are part of why fandom is so toxic and divisive atm. Just cut it the fuck out.

LOL

DA*cheers*

/apparently it's fine for millenials to have a go at older people in a rude and condescending way but oldies are not allowed to snark back. Yeah, how 'bout NO.

This is why you don't have any friends.

Someone defends you, apologizes as you express your wishes to not be defended, and is rewarded with an insult.

Seriously? You suck balls.

/someone not in their 60s

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-07-07 01:40 (UTC) - Expand

Hmm...thought the poster was referring to me, and not thee. I could be mistaken.

Hi there, age colleague! Most of the time I do ignore things like this. I think part of my response actually came out of my wedding fatigue. I probably shouldn't have engaged; on the other hand, swallowing my irritation - and yes, I was irritated at a small thing - here on fandom secrets (where the idea is oft-times to vent) seemed silly as well.

Since it was I who engaged, I have no right to sulk that people disagree with me, often profoundly (or snarkily, or both). Nor do I. But I don't think I'm punching down because of their age. At a certain point, people younger than I am are adults, and I consider them capable of holding conversations, including silly conversations like this. The argument could be made that always refraining from disagreeing with someone because they are younger doesn't give them respect as adults.

YES. What ayrt really meant, I suspect, is "shut up, young people's opinions are the only ones that matter nowadays and I will show how cool I am with da kids by telling you off", which, hell to that.

Don't put words in my mouth. I meant only what I said: that immature sniping like that isn't a good look for people our age, especially when it's aimed at someone very much younger. I never said her opinion didn't matter (and, in fact, I agree with her on the base argument). Simply: there's more constructive ways to handle an argument.

Heh ... I probably did the same type of thing when I was young, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth. In fact, I know I did.

da Going out on a limb here and guessing 'vast majority of coverage' is angry fans tweeting about how much they hate the boots.

Since many of the stories I've seen online have been taken up with showing screencaps of angry fannish tweets, I'm inclined to agree.

Imagine what she was wearing as mother of the groom and let's have a moment of silence for the poor bride and groom. ;D

Well, the light purple cotton dress and matching jacket made it a little hard for me to pogo with my son at the reception, but I managed.

Well that was unnecessarily personal and childish of you.

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