Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-08-09 04:42 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-08-09 04:42 pm
[ SECRET POST #582 ]
⌈ Secret Post #582 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
FS Layout Contest. Contest entries close August 10th!
Secrets Left to Post: 22 pages, 546 secrets from Secret Submission Post #084.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 154
There are a lot better symbols for the feminist community to rally around than a selfish, egotistical risk-taker who has been shown *in canon* as being irresponsible, rude and borderline verbally abusive to the people she supposedly cares for. What kind of message is that sending about the feminist movement that they rely on someone like *her* as a symbol?
And it is true, lots of women can be sexist, but it makes no sense for a *woman* to be a misogynist. "Misogyny" does not mean "sexist," it literally means "the hatred of women."
Re: 154
Re: 154
What's more, everyone acts like she was killed off because she was a girl, which makes no sense. It seemed to *me* that they killed her off because she had become a rather uninteresting character who had very little place in the Batman world outside of female fans' self-insersion fantasies.
Re: 154
Dude, they've kept less interesting characters around.
Personally, I'd argue she was, is, and could have been an interesting character (especially if she'd faced the aftermath of the war she helped cause), but somehow I doubt we'll see eye-to-eye on that.
Re: 154
On the other hand, Jason got a case, which turned him into a faceless *symbol* of failure, and only came back as a character once, when somebody was playing with Bruce's mind. And that's in over a decade of death. I'd say that Steph got the better deal.
And yeah, they've kept less interesting characters around, but who's ever thanked them for it? You've got two options with a useless character: write them into limbo, or kill 'em off. Which one you do just depends on what story element they need.
You're probably right on that last point. I'm still too annoyed over the mess that Dixon made out of Robin this past half-a-year to really feel any love for the character. (It's not that they brought her back that makes me so mad, it's that they brought her back with a FANFIC LEVEL STORY full of plotholes, half-assed subplots and completely inexplicable character reactions that makes me so mad.)
Re: 154
Re: 154
I think that Spoiler is particularly well placed as a rallying point, not because what was done to her was worse than any other female character (Steph's death was horrific; shame we can't call it an isolated incident), but because it was a textbook example of the rubbish heaped on female characters coupled with a host of other things which signposted quite explicitly some of the biggest issues around mistreatment of female characters:
The case that wasn't in the batcave.
The difference between her sexualised death scene and the similar, but non-sexualised death of Jason Todd.
Editorial refusal to acknowledge the impact of her death on other characters.
The erasure from the canon of a female character whom many girls had grown up with, and seen as a role-model. (How worthy a role model she is is a separate issue.)
The production of an action figure depicting the implement which tortured her.
Editorial retraction of her stint as Robin.
All these factors make Steph a useful focal point because they neatly illustrate sevaral disparate problems. Furthermore, focus on Steph doesn't mean she gets attention from feminists at the expense of other causes. Consider Project Girl Wonder - Spoiler may be the focal point of the website, but the site's very existence has actually created a broad platform of interconnected forums and blogs which give feminists a space to come together and focus on depictions of all kinds of women in comics.
As far as I'm concerned, it sends no message about feminists other than that they recognise a character whom circumstances placed at the locus of many gendered double-standards of storytelling as a useful banner.
Re: 154
Just for the record, being agaisnt the feminist movement isn't misogynism either, at least, not i my book. It's a "hatred of women." Not of empowered women, not of free-thinking women, but just fo *women.* The narratives you state are sexist, *not* misogynistic.
That said, all of those 'points' have always struck me as things that people cooked up to turn Steph into a feminist icon, not things that she became an icon *because* of.
It makes sense for her to *not* get a case, because, unlike Jason, who died because of a trap that came with the hazards of the job, Steph caused her own death, and those of a thousand others. She didn't get a case becasue she didn't *deserve* one. And that's *besides* the fact that she, as a character, got more of an in-canon memorium with the people she lived with than Jason *ever* did, which should count more than a Symbol of Angst. Just because Superboy died and Tim's grief for her melded into his grief for Kon doesn't mean that "the impact of her death wasn't acknolwedged." In fact, I've found that the people who were intent on making her into a "symbol" have perptually ignored all the times when the impact of her death *was* acknowledged.
And as for the "erasure of a female rolemodel," I'm sorry, but that's bull. Nobody ever complained that Superboy or Kid Flash's deaths were the "erasure of male rolemodels." To top it off, she *wasn't* erased from canon, she died, just like hundreds of other male and female characters. But you don't see anyone complaining about *them* being 'erased.'
As far as *I'm* concerned, supporting her as some sort of ideal woman sends the message that one can only be considered a strong 'feminist' by disrespecting authority, being rude in order to get your way, and verbally mistreating the people around you. "Project Girl WOnder" is only one of many feminist comic book blogging sites out there, but it's the *only* one that's relied on such a flawed "role-model" on which to base their platform.
Re: 154
How can you be against having women as your equals and not hate or distrust them in any way? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and it's useless to pit the dictionary definition of sexism and misogyny against the practical definition, as the two will not sync up.
That said, all of those 'points' have always struck me as things that people cooked up to turn Steph into a feminist icon, not things that she became an icon *because* of.
Then don't you think it might be possible that you're opposed to her as a character and that's why you don't want to see her as an icon? How can you say that all of those points are arbitrary when they're all themes that have been repeated and documented and when all you have to go on for your opposition is something that "struck you?" Maybe it's just your bias?
Nobody ever complained that Superboy or Kid Flash's deaths were the "erasure of male rolemodels."
Superboy or Kid Flash's deaths were not the erasure of male models because there were many other male role models to choose from, and the same isn't true of Steph.
As far as *I'm* concerned, supporting her as some sort of ideal woman sends the message that one can only be considered a strong 'feminist' by disrespecting authority, being rude in order to get your way, and verbally mistreating the people around you.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding of the situation is that Steph isn't a feminist icon so much as a feminist rallying point. The feminist part is not belief that her behaviour is ideal, but that she deserves more respect from the writers and is a textbook example of how women in comics are mistreated.
Re: 154
As not all sexist men have this kind of urge, there *has* to be a distinction somewhere.
"Then don't you think it might be possible that you're opposed to her as a character and that's why you don't want to see her as an icon? How can you say that all of those points are arbitrary when they're all themes that have been repeated and documented and when all you have to go on for your opposition is something that "struck you?" Maybe it's just your bias?"
It's always a possibility. But you have to consider - documented by whom? The supporters of the idea, of course, and therefore the reports are arguably laced with the bias opposite of mine. The real truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but since the supporters yell so loud to get attention for their work and label anyone who disagrees with them "misogynists" - a term which, deserving or not, might as well be a death sentence in the modern world - the other side never gets heard, so people assume that it doesn't exisit. Which is, of course, just how GW.org and their supporters want it.
"Superboy or Kid Flash's deaths were not the erasure of male models because there were many other male role models to choose from, and the same isn't true of Steph."
There are many other female role models to take Steph's place, many of whom are more deserving of the attention. Batgirl, Wonder Girl, Troia, Wonder Woman, Empress, Supergirl, Oracle, Black Canary, Catwoman, Huntress, the entire Birds of Prey line-up, Power Girl, Stargirl and more. They're all strong, determined women who would make great role models.
Re: 154
There's a little thing called "Character growth." It's usually a lot better than killing someone off.
Cissie King started heroing because her mommy told her, nearly killed someone, and then found a way to inspire other girls for the better another way. Wonder Girl started as a nerdy fangirl and turned into something so much greater. If you go to the boys, Kon-El went from being an attention-seeking, immature cad to someone willing to die for the whole world.
If they'd killed Cissie or Cassie, for...no damn reason, pretty much, that'd be a good rallying point to get behind, too.
Why kill them when they can grow?
Re: 154
Ah, see, therein lies the problem - as a character, Stephanie Brown has *never* grown. Not *once.*
She went through tons of things that *should* have made her grow - she survived an earthquake and a plague, had a baby, lost her father and been tortured almost to death. But never once has her personality changed in any way as a result of those incidents. At the most, she develops a bit more of her holier-than-thou complex, but otherwise, she moves on as though it had never even happened.
Cissie and Cassie's personalities changed becasuse of what they went through. Steph never did and *that* is why she's a useless character with whom the only real option was to kill off.
Re: 154
There's no such thing as a useless character, and killing one off is never "the only real option."
For instance, Tim Drake went from a fun, if kinda serious character in his YJ YJ days to a complete, insufferably boring angstmuffin that was trying to clone his dead friend and cling to the past.
Rather than kill him off, I'd LIKE for Tim to grow and heal and get un-angstified and un-boring again. Because he can be fun again. People can heal from hurts even as bad as Tim has experienced and live their lives in a way to honor the memory of those they loved--especially since those they loved would WANT them to be happy again.
There's no such thing as "useless" characters just like there's no such thing as "useless" people. Every person in the world has the ability to contribute to the world or to other people. If every single one that didn't suddenly dropped dead, that'd suck as opposed to every single one that didn't suddenly starting to do good things.
There's ALWAYS another option, and it's "write them better."