fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #584 ]

[ SECRET POST #584 ]

⌈ Secret Post #584 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Layout entries'll be posted later tonight!

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 371 secrets from Secret Submission Post #084.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - empty comment ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

That anonymity is part of the problem. In order for a Black man to use the word "nigger", he has to be a Black man. In order for a queer person to call someone else a "faggot", they have to be gay. When you hide behind internet anonymity, you are voluntarily negating any and all minority groups like that that you belong to. Because no, I don't know whether or not you're a gay Black man, and you don't know if I am. So if you call me a nigger or a fag, I don't see those terms as coming from another Black man, or from another gay person. I just see the words, and without the cultural connection of having those words come from someone else in my minority group, the words are offensive. And yes, offensive and taboo. If you aren't a Black man, you have no fucking right to call me a nigger. If you aren't a gay man, you have no fucking right to call me a faggot. Even if you are Black or gay, if we haven't established that those words are acceptable between the two of us, they're still offensive. I would never go up to a random Black man on the street and greet him with "hi, nigger!" because I don't know him. We haven't agreed, the two of us, that we're going to reclaim that word, and without that agreement, the term continues to be offensive.

I'd say it's part of the solution, not the problem. In my opinion, because we're both anonymous, you have no right to dictate on me whether I should school my language use to your preferences or not. You find these words offensive - how am I supposed to know that before the fact? And how does it really effect me, in the long run? I'm supposed to stop, and work out all the possible ways I could offend you, and change my language use accordingly, all for one passing anonymous conversation on the internet? If that's the case then you should also do the same for me, and change your language use according to my preferences. It doesn't and can't work one way like that.

And no, I would never go up to a stranger on the street and say a word that I knew could be taken as offensive to them. That's common sense. And it's also amazingly out of context for this debate - I am talking about language use on the internet, not in real life. They effect each other, yes, but they are two different things. This conversation is transient, and has no consequences for either of us. The same could not be said for real life.

You find these words offensive - how am I supposed to know that before the fact?

Because everyone knows those words are offensive and everyone knows not to use them with strangers.

No, I don't know this. Because I'm on the internet. How do I know whether you're one of the people 'from 4chan' who are okay with the usage? I don't. It's not the same anymore. If it was, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

So you're telling me that because we're on the internet and I might be a 4chan user, it's okay to call me a faggot, because you no longer know any better?

They aren't my preferences, though. I'm not sitting here telling you to never ever ever use the word "moist" because I find it disgusting. I'm telling you that use of the word "nigger" is offensive to a lot of people for a lot of reasons. And you know that it's an offensive word, because you've been defending your right to use it, which you wouldn't do if the word didn't have the connotations it does.
I'm not telling you that you can't use these words, either. I'm telling you that by using these words, you're contributing to the bullshit that POCs and homosexuals have to deal with - regardless of whether you belong to those groups or not. The only place my opinion enters into it is that I think you're a gigantic douche for calling people fags and thinking it doesn't mean much.

I am talking about language use on the internet, not in real life. They effect each other, yes, but they are two different things. This conversation is transient, and has no consequences for either of us. The same could not be said for real life.

I'm sorry, but are you fucking kidding me? You mean, because you aren't in danger of being punched in the face for calling a Black man a nigger, that it's okay? That because you calling someone a faggot isn't tied to your real life name and face, it doesn't matter? Is that actually the argument you're making here?

Actually, I've had similar discussions to this multiple times. I'm not defending my right to use these words - I believe I have that right already. I'm arguing against your belief that my connotations do not count simply because they're held (at this time) by the minority. It's a discussion, not a court case. At the end of the day, your opinion doesn't effect mine in the slightest - I got into it because I find the discussion of language on the internet interesting, not because I felt attacked.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all. I'm saying the consequences are nowhere near as great. In fact, in this situation, there are none at all for me. And yes, that effects my behaviour. I see no point in denying that - it's the basis for 'anonymous' becoming the beast that it has.

Out of curiosity, why do you keep capitalising black?

I never said that the connotations you're putting on these words aren't valid simply because they're connotations held by a minority. This is the way you think about these words, what they mean, and where they're appropriate to use. I don't agree, but my disagreement in no way should be read as me saying that you cannot hold those beliefs, and if I came across as saying that, then that's my bad. You can absolutely hold those beliefs, and I have no right whatsoever to tell you otherwise.

That said... you, my fellow Anon, are a tremendous douche.

Haha, maybe. And I think you've got a stick up your arse the size of China. Nothing personal, obviously ♥

Of course not! How could it be personal? I'm Anon, and this is the internet - none of this is real.

~matrix~

This conversation is transient, and has no consequences for either of us. The same could not be said for real life.

This is just not true. A conversation is a conversation is a conversation; whether it happens over the phone, on the Internet, over the dinner table, on on the street is a matter of form, and to a limited extent context, but not of content. Whether words hurt or not is a matter of content, and perhaps to a limited extent context, but not of form.

People are still people whether they're on the Internet or not.

I'm anonymous. I can easily close this window right now and all I'll carry away from this conversation is the emails in my inbox, which I can delete. The only thing I could call more transient than that was if I hadn't tagged the thread for email tracking.

So, because it doesn't bother you, it's okay?

Fail.

Really? You can erase it from your living memory that easily?

If that's true, I don't know whether I envy that or feel very, very sorry for you. A little bit of both, I think, but more the latter than the former.

I can't. And I wouldn't want to.

Honestly, a spoken word on the wind is far, far more transient for me than anything I've seen in print, whether on paper or on a screen. If you can treat this as that transient, I would imagine you'd be even more callous to someone in real life.

The other person would see my face. True, I could never meet them again, but I could also meet them again and have their impression of me be effected by the way I had previously acted. They could also potentially tell other people, spreading it to people whose opinions I did care about.

As it is, I'm anon. You have no idea who I am. I could log on under an LJ name and start replying to this thread arguing against myself now, and you'd have no idea.

So what? The exchange still happened. Whatever hurt or pride or giggles anyone got out of it still happened. If you want to sockpuppet argue against yourself, I'm all for it. Doesn't change anyone else's feelings about it.

People are still people, whether they're on the internet or not. There is a living, breathing person typing on a keyboard (or more than two; I don't know if all you anonymice are the same or not, but that doesn't matter) on both ends. Just because you can't see me, or I you, doesn't make either one of us less of a real person. Whether the exchange can have consequences for either one of us doesn't erase anyone's humanity for the duration of the exchange. (I don't actually believe communication can happen without consequences, even if they're minor, so that last is a moot point for me anyway.)

Well, in your terms, it does erase my humanity, because I really don't care on your opinion of me. You have no idea who I am. I can walk away from this and there are no implications on my character, because you don't know who I am. Maybe this makes me callous or heartless in your opinion, but that doesn't and can't actually effect me. What consequences could you actually call down on me personally because of this exchange?

Perhaps this makes me a bad person. And I could call up that I'm not the only one, but I know that's a flawed argument. I could possibly justify it by saying that my internet socialisation has been different from yours, and so I act by different norms and values, but I don't think that really justifies anything. Oh well.

Being able to walk away from a conversation on whether or not you should be allowed to use slurs casually just makes you privileged. It has nothing to do with the internet or your anonymity.

Privileged how? Are you assuming things about me now?

No, I'm talking about this kind of thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexual_privilege

So you're assuming I belong to one or all of those groups, and that's how I can walk away from slur usage with no baggage? You really think all of the users on 4chan are straight white males? All of them?

Nope, I just think you're probably straight and white.

Plus, being able to walk away from a conversation about this kind of thing unaffected is a hallmark of privilege. I just thought I'd introduce you to the concept.

Wrong on both counts. Not that it matters, or that I can prove it. But still, you know what they say about assumptions.

Being able to walk away from a conversation about this kind of thing unaffected is also a sign of 'being from 4chan'. Ethnicity, gender and sexuality really have nothing to do with it anymore. We're living the post-modern reality. Stop trying to fight it.

... How does that change anything? In real life, you walk away from a conversation. There isn't even a text record. That doesn't change anything at all. What point are you trying to make?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #584 ]

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