fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #588 ]

[ SECRET POST #588 ]

⌈ Secret Post #588 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

early because my internet connection's giving me up and letting me down

OH YEAH -- and

fandomsecrets_o! for non-english secrets

ALSO, subs post is nearing 700, which means it closes soon, get stuff in for next week!

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #084.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - personal attack ], [ 1 - troll ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Are you out of your mind? What Heroes fandom are you in where you're actually allowed to say you hate her without being accused of every form of bigotry on the planet?

*eyeroll*

Well, outside of the Mylar comms. *hugs my sanctuary*

SRSLY, sick of people saying "I like Maya but I'm not allowed to say so." Seems to me like you're sticking your neck out if you admit that you don't.

Depends on the comm, I think. There are definitely some larger comms and BBS's where I wouldn't want to talk about liking her.

I guess. All I ever see on this comm is "Maya is wonderful and nobody admits it and you're all evil if you don't see it" and I keep wondering why these people don't notice they're in the majority at least here. My best friend got verbally bitchslapped by some chick from Northern Europe on this community for saying that as a Latina she found the characterisation offensive and silly.

And I strongly suspect that the viewers outside fandom mostly like her, because she's hot and that's really enough for a whole lot of people.

(Even in the Mylar fic comms, sometimes people feel like they have to disclaimer like crazy--not just the usual death warnings--if she dies in a fic, no matter how perfectly logical it is for her to die in the fic given the plot.)

btw: once they start writing Mohinder/Maya into canon, Em and I are waiting for all the 3M'ers who said Mylar fans were racist (because we obviously don't like to see Sylar with brown people? WTF) or misogynist for hating her to get confronted with the evidence that the batshit shippers on their ship are writing the exact same crap that some of the loonies on our ship did.

Edited 2008-08-15 22:47 (UTC)

Do you mean me, and this comment I left her? (http://community.livejournal.com/fandomsecrets/182785.html?thread=72025601#t72025601)

I had actually been hoping she would reply to it. I think it really is important to point out that the portrayals of other minorities and nationalities has been similarly hurtful to the groups in question. The example being the Asian stereotypes, which do piss off Japanese fans and Asian-Americans, yet your friend (as a Latina) admits to considering them thoroughly positive portrayals.
There is no sense in talking about this topic without acknowleding that we all have different sensibilities, and none of us is completely right or completely wrong.

This just in case you do mean me. I'm not entirely sure because I'm from Germany, which isn't in Northern Europe.

I didn't see that. I actually meant someone else. But now it's happened TWICE. All she tried to tell you is that she only knows enough to complain about the ones whose issues she knows.

Hiro, while probably not the ultimate image of an Asian, is a lot like several friends of mine in Tokyo. Ando is like several guys I've dated. (I am personally not Japanese, but I have a lot of friends and ex-SOs who are. My Japanese kinda sucks, but.) Yes, there are some stereotypes involved, but they're not nearly as frickin' unbelievable as Maya is (that whole, let's get Maya to every part of Latin America possible so we can put it all into one character instead of having to make different ones is to LOL). Everyone on Heroes, I agree, has some problematic characterisation. Why do the Petrellis have to have mob ties? Why is the main black male an ex-con who dates strippers?

But Maya is the only one she can speak to PERSONALLY. And the other person was much more offensive than you.

That said, I personally, because I know people who are so much like that who are Japanese, and enjoyed the witty dialogue written by Masi Oka, really enjoyed Hiro in S1--and thought S2 was absolutely brutally offensive.

Right down to the Obligatory Cherry Blossoms and the idiot girl who can't tell the difference between the white guy mangling her language and the 21st century guy who is speaking the wrong dialect because he's wearing a mask?

(I hate Yaeko so much. I hate that Kensei was white like burning. I hate that nobody is bothering to use the right type of language, because in S1 the Japanese dialogue was very real to my ear, unlike so many shows where they have Asian American actors who aren't fluent using sentences a first-year Japanese student would construct with all the usual mistakes...hardly anyone starts sentences with "watakushi wa"...)

But see, I can't really say very much about Maya, except to repeat what she tells me. Because that's not what I know. If you want to have a conversation about Asian stereotypes you can have it with me. I'm not Asian, but there was a time in my life when at least half my friends were and we were speaking Japanese and English, code-switching like crazy, and I was going to Japanese-language hip-hop parties and even attempted bad Japanese rap. I don't have so much of a problem with Hiro and Ando because they are so very familiar, like I said I imagine that's almost exactly what would happen if at least one guy I used to know from Comiket got powers, and Ando reminds me so much of this one ex, who used to go to hostess bars and make an ass of himself, and someone on the show had to be a fanboy. But what was done to Japanese culture in S2 left me raging like crazy.

I think the entirety of S2 was bad writing and so does she when she's not up against a wall. But Maya is especially irritating because she's been made a litmus test for political correctness in so many communities. Bad writing is always irritating; it becomes more so when people tell you that disliking it makes you a bad person.

You know, the majority of this could be summed up by "Non-credentials out of the way". No one cares about your alleged or actual Japanese prowess - this discussion was not about Yaeko or Hiro, but about Maya.

Also, two points: a) Yaeko's actress IS Japanese, I'd guess she knows enough Japanese to know whether 'watakushi wa' is a valid construction or not and b) on that note, that construction is, in fact, still being used. I'd assume the majority of your alleged contacts are in their teens or twenties, and to be straightforward, those do not actually reflect language usage throughout the population, or even time. Yes, the Kensei storyline was one of the most offensive pieces of shit to ever have violated my monitor, but the problem was hardly language usage.

I think I must not have expressed myself clearly. Of course people say "watakushi wa"--but they don't say it every time an American would say "I am". A hallmark of bad, student Japanese translation is the failure to omit the use of pronouns that are necessary in grammatical English but not in Japanese. Most Japanese dialogue in TV shows is written at that level; I loved Heroes S1 because it wasn't.

S2 is another matter. I know the actress playing Yaeko is Japanese; I think I've got one of her CDs around here somewhere. The problem with language use in S2 was NOT "watakushi wa" type stuff. Nor was it any fault of the ACTRESS.

It was a writing problem. A native speaker of 16th century Japanese should not have any trouble telling the difference between an Englishman murdering the language and a 21st century Japanese murdering the language because neither one of them would be speaking 16th century Japanese very well. It should not have been possible for Yaeko to mistake Hiro for Kensei because of a stupid mask. They made her appallingly stupid.

I don't know who you are to think you know how old I or my friends are. The issue wasn't ever pronoun choice!

Anyhow, that storyline was completely offensive starting from Kensei being white, down through the stereotyping, and ending with them making Yaeko so unforgivably stupid that she was the equivalent of a modern American girl who couldn't tell the difference between a recent immigrant from Russia speaking English with a heavy Russian accent and a time traveller from the 16th century who used "thee" and "thou" all the time.

I have a phrase for you: suspension of disbelief. You might want to google it. Adam's Japanese is truly horrid, but the storyline WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED without suspension of disbelief. That doesn't make Yaeko stupid, that makes Anders a linguistic fuckbend. You need to learn to distinguish between the characters - whose fault it truly is not when their storylines suck - and the writers - whose fault it generally IS.

I don't know who you are to think you know how old I or my friends are.

I can actually click on and read profiles, you know. And rap is even less a middle-age-people thing in Japan than it is in the US.

starting from Kensei being white, down through the stereotyping

That I can agree with. Add the raping of actual history with a pointy stick, and we're getting somewhere.

I didn't see that. I actually meant someone else. But now it's happened TWICE.

I didn't see anything else. I know it happened twice between her and me, though. The first time was definitely more heated and went nowhere as well.

This is why I was startled that she brought up the topic to me again. If you look back at how the thread started, you'll see that it was with something about the Sylar/Maya relationship on the show. She brought up the portrayal of Maya, on her own, unasked for. I was naive and thought it was because she wanted to continue the conversation we started earlier, more calmly this time. So I replied, but she only wrote this angry rant (basically repeating herself from the last time) and then didn't acknowledge anything I wrote in reply.

All she tried to tell you is that she only knows enough to complain about the ones whose issues she knows.

This is not at all how it came across. She might need to work on her communication skills. I thought she had a personal vendetta against me, which confused me because all I did wrong was like Maya as a person.

A few additions:

No, I am not interested in talking with you about Asian stereotypes on Heroes. I have friends to do that with.

Maybe you think Hiro and Ando were similar to your friends because your friends happened to be anime/manga fans? You mentioned Comiket and hostess bars. Not every Japanese is an otaku, though, and a lot of them dislike the image, which was my point. Your life story doesn't matter.

Why is the main black male an ex-con who dates strippers?

DL does not date strippers. :( He is married to a woman who is a stripper. I don't think there's anything that suggests she was already working as a stripper when they met. Stick to the facts when pointing out clichés. Your version surely sounds more outrageous, but it's not the stereotype used for DL on Heroes.

But see, I can't really say very much about Maya, except to repeat what she tells me.

This means there is no sense in trying to talk with you about this. You will only parrot what she says, and since all she is interested in is throwing tantrums, this won't go anywhere.
You just admitted you have no opinion of your own on this topic. Why are you talking about it?

Then don't hate Yaeko, hate 1. Masi Oka, 2. the Japanese consultant on the show, and 3. the writers, directors, and producers who don't take either Masi Oka or the consultant seriously enough when in a hurry to finish an episode.

Same story with Maya. Hate the bad storyline. Lay the fuck off with the bashing. It's unbecoming and only makes you seem like an idiot slash fangirl.

Oh wait, you are. And looking at your comments below, I once again come to the conclusion than IQ has nothing to do with intelligence. Fascinating! (For the record, I'm about the same place as the OP on that scale. I just happen to know it means jack.)

WTF. It's moral to hate writers and actors (real people) when they make mistakes, but hating a fictional character because it annoys you is wrong?

Yeah, I really want to be super-intelligent like you are. *eyeroll*

Hating the people actually responsible for the thing that makes you so angry? It sounds reasonable to me. More reasonable than to hate a fictional character for something a real person has done.
You know, projecting your hatred on someone who doesn't even exist, that sounds a little crazy.

Of course, there is also the option for you not to hate at all. Have you considered the lifestyle of not frothing with rage at every opportunity? I hear it's good.

You just. keep. missing. the. point.

And could you please stop using that icon? That's not Mylar. WTF.

Re: 126

(Anonymous) - 2008-08-16 17:21 (UTC) - Expand

To be fair, though, this community really isn't representative of Heroes fandom at large. A lot of weird and minority opinions show up here.

And honestly, I'm not sure we're going to see nearly as much vehemence from the House of M fandom as the Mylar fans. After, Maya's name begins with an M! :D Also, that section of fandom is ricockulously passive-aggressive most of the time.

Edited 2008-08-16 00:20 (UTC)

You're a fucktard, though.

lol
yeah, this pretty much proves you perceive reality differently than normal people.

Are you out of your mind?

Try looking in the mirror, hon. You must be living in some sort of dreamworld Heroes fandom, because I see vicious Maya hatred practically everywhere I go online. And aside from the surprising amount of Maya support I've seen on this community the past couple of days, I can count on one hand the times anyone's ever spoken against it.

Well, outside of the Mylar comms.

LOLZ. Mylar is such a widespread ship that all Sylar comms are automatically Mylar comms - which wouldn't be a problem if Mylar fans as a whole were a little more mature about their OTP. Did you ever look at

heroes_sylar at any point during the latter half of season two? Seriously, did you? Because the Maya hate there got COMPLETELY out of control, and virtually no one said anything about it until several people repeatedly begged the mod to step in and restore some kind of sanity. And even that didn't do much to reduce the mindless Maya bashing.

That's right, blame the shippers.

She's not very well-written.

I spend a lot of time around people who are kinda political, and to hear some of them talk, she's a frigging litmus test. If you hate her you must be a racist misogynist, especially if you dare (gasp) to ship Mylar.

There are a few gross people on

heroes_sylar. It's a HUGE community. There are also people on that comm that ship her with Sylar.

Edited 2008-08-15 23:55 (UTC)

Not the OP, but -

That's right, blame the shippers.

That's not what she said.

heroes_sylar is bugfuck crazy, and I severely doubt all the Maya haters are Mylar shippers. That being said, your stamina in making everything about you and your preferences is simply astounding.

She's not very well-written.

I never claimed she was well-written. I am more than willing to acknowledge that there were multiple problems with her storyline. But I also firmly believe that her poor storyline issues alone are nowhere near enough to cause all the rampant hate she got (and still gets). No, I'm not saying that every single person who hates and bashes her is a Mylar shipper - that's obviously not the case. But a lot of them are. And a lot of them bash her mainly for that reason, if their comments are anything to go by.

There are a few gross people on heroes_sylar.

A few? Hah.

There are also people on that comm that ship her with Sylar.

True, there are a small handful. But I seriously hope you're not attempting to equate the Mylar fanbase with the Maya/Sylar shippers, because the difference in numbers between the two groups borders on astronomical.

She's not very well-written.

Neither is Yaeko, as you yourself pointed out above.

Yet, there is no gigantic backlash against her.

Why? Two reasons. One: There are more people in the Heroes fandom (i.e. in the US) who are aware of South American stereotypes than there are people aware of what kind of stereotypes the Japanese find of themselves in foreign media (i.e. Americentrism). Two: Maya has the potential to break two much, much larger ships. And you honestly expect people to not interpret at least part of the Maya-bashing to be about shippers and their territories?

Duh.

I don't know anyone who likes Yaeko either, but you just go right on blaming the shippers. There is no gigantic backlash against Yaeko because she's a plot device. No-one has yet thought to make her a Feminist, Anti-Racist Litmus Test. She's not meant to be a star, she's a reason for Kensei and Hiro to argue. She's not a hero.

How stupid would I have to be to expect Mohinder and Sylar to become lovers in canon, and how little would I have to care about my OTP in order to consider my ship "broken" if they get together with other people? Shipping is about subtext. If your ship becomes canon it's usually unsatisfying and it doesn't mean you win.

Edited 2008-08-16 06:08 (UTC)

How stupid would I have to be to expect Mohinder and Sylar to become lovers in canon

That's the most intelligent thing you've said in this whole thread. Thumbs up!

I don't know anyone who likes Yaeko either

Yeah, but do you see massive hate campaigns? If you do, I'd like you to point me in that direction. But seeing as you are personally blind to the massive hate campaign against Maya, I'm not sure I trust your eyes one bit. A lot of people are "meh" about Yaeko. Perfectly understandable. Maya inspires frothing rage and demands for her head on a platter. If you really can't see the difference, again: get your eyes examined.

How stupid would I have to be to expect Mohinder and Sylar to become lovers in canon, and how little would I have to care about my OTP in order to consider my ship "broken" if they get together with other people? Shipping is about subtext. If your ship becomes canon it's usually unsatisfying and it doesn't mean you win.

That is indeed the most intelligent thing I've ever heard you say. That it's common fucking sense speaks volumes about you.

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