fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4390 ]

[ SECRET POST #4390 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4390 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07. [SPOILERS for A Series of Unfortunate Events]

__________________________________________________

08. [WARNING for discussion of rape]

[Tales of Zestiria]

__________________________________________________

09. [WARNING for discussion of RL death]

[Walk Off The Earth]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #628.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I hate it because it implies that gender is a binary in the first place - that there are two little boxes and that if you don't fit perfectly into either one of those boxes, then you are somehow not that gender, which is bullshit. You can be female and have short hair and hate makeup and skirts and be into sports and video games, just like you can be male and have long hair and like cooking and romcoms and enjoy dressing stylishly. Gender has nothing to do with how you present or what you like.

Yeah, non-binarism is almost perpendicular to feminism & progressivism as I understand it.

It's like, instead of standing up for diversity and opportunity with the bodies and lives we have, they want to define themselves out of gender labels entirely. Why? What difference does it make? I'm not saying that they're all implicitly running from their own physicality, but it does sound like some of them are, and like a middle finger at all the roles and customs of human society.

I'm ... weird enough that I can sympathise with it, but it feels like a socially awkward idea from the unfinished mind of an adolescent.

Exactly. I've seen people say things like "I don't feel female/male" and it's just like... do you not realize that is the definition of being cis? That you don't think about your gender probably 90% of the time? Hell, one of my friends realized he was trans specifically BECAUSE he found out from another friend that no, most people aren't preoccupied with their gender and it hardly ever crosses their minds.

People have somehow gotten it into their minds that unless you spend a large part of every day thinking about your gender, you're not doing gender properly. I'm a cis woman who is completely comfortable and happy being a woman and I sure as hell couldn't tell you what it means to feel female because I never even think about being female except on occasion. It feels like what you said, like these people have unfinished, rather myopic ideas of what gender entails.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

First of all, nonbinary comes via Kate Bornstein, who was pointing out in the early 1990s that not all transfeminine people were best served by strict gatekeeping that forced them to act hyperfeminine as a precondition for getting support, treatment, and gender-confirmation surgery. Another radical suggestion at the time was that trans people should be able to choose (with consultation with their medical providers) both how and when we transition, and that declining top or bottom surgery isn't a failure.

The other major thread in this genderqueer, which comes via Les Feinberg, one of the leaders of LGBT history and philosophy, who documented people who cross-dressed, adopted new names, and played with pronouns, within historic gay/lesbian culture. Feinberg suggested that historic people who did not pass as their assigned gender, got no benefits from passing, often were criminalized, institutionalized, beaten, or killed for not passing, probably had some pretty good reasons why they didn't just pass. There's a long history of gay, lesbian, and bi people estranged from dominant gender identities.

Note that none of this is saying that cis and heterosexual people are Barbie and Ken clones. The argument here is that trying to shape all trans people into Barbie and Ken clones, which was the official medical standard of practice required for legal recognition until extremely recently, isn't a universal good.

Culturally there is a gender "uncanny valley" in which, you're very likely to be clocked as queer, get a beating, get harassed, get thrown out of respectable businesses, get reported to HR for breaking the dress code, or invite a police response even if you're using the legally correct restrooms and changing rooms. That gap is a bit broader for amab people then for afab people. But, the "baby butch" look stops being cute after baby is expected to grow up, and "f*gs" learn to live with eyes in the back of our heads. Ezra Miller and Jayden Smith are leveraging a lot of privilege to wear those skirts. No, it's not really "trendy," even among Gen-Z. Gender-nonconforming LGBTQ youth report high levels of harassment and violence within American school systems. (As of two years ago, I suspect that Trump gutted that data collection.)

And you know what, it has absolutely nothing to do with cis people. It is not a commentary on what cis people do, and arguing it does is just rebranding 1970s transphobia for a new century. It's about our efforts to live without discrimination and violence. It's about our struggles with the proven adverse health outcomes of passing in hostile environments. It's about how we organize support networks. It's about how we get mental health treatment that isn't centered on the needs of cis men and women.

Any commentary on gender norms is a commentary on "what cis people do."

You could actually bother to read nonbianry people who will acknowledge that it's possible for cis women to be masculine, and cis men to be feminine, but we have needs and stressors beyond just "cis people can do that too."

OK, I'm chewing on this. Your post helped, really.

The history of this? Sure, that's accurate. But by continuing to act like every gender non-conforming person is something "other" and trending it up (because yes, it very much IS a trend right now), they're only reinforcing that "bit conforming to stereotypes =other" instead of trying to continue normalizing gender(stereotype)-nonconforming behaviour.

Dude. I know a lot of nb people who are very stereotypically feminine or masculine depending on what they're designated at birth. Get off your stupid, bigoted horse that can't conceive that NB people are as much a spectrum as the rest of us.

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 15:32 (UTC) - Expand

"Trends" are generally what elites manage to get in the pages of glossy magazines and websites, but don't really change reality for the rest of us LGBTQ schmos. Bisexuality has been perpetually "trendy" since the 70s, which hasn't stopped any of the discrimination of violence I've experienced in my lifetime. It's still a reality that transfeminine people in some communities rent lock-ups out of town and check into hotel rooms once a week in order to dress.

But no, my wearing feminine clothing is not a comment on how you wear feminine things. How I get my hair cut is not a commentary on how you get your hair cut. My hobbies (unnecessarily gendered) are not a comment on your hobbies. None of that defines me as a genderqueer person.

Oh for fuck's sake. It's not about that. It's about, "Yeah, people insist there's a gender binary, but there's really fucking not, and I, at least, do not fit inside the societal binary genderwise."

Genitals come in a lot of shapes and sizes, and being intersex is a lot more common than people think, but people don't fucking whine about that because it's "real" and "tangible."

Yes, you are very special. 👍

I'm cis, baby. The only one special here is your bigoted ass.

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 17:49 (UTC) - Expand

I dunno, I’m a cis woman, but as “middle finger(s) at all the roles and customs of human society” go, this one doesn’t seem that out there. I really don’t understand why cis people care. Like, people are weird and do weird stuff and this particular weirdness isn’t hurting anyone.

“Human society” is hardly a monolith anyway; there’s cultures where mixing dead loved ones’ ashes into special foods at the funeral is the done thing, cultures with more than two genders, and speaking of “running from their own physicality,” cultures where putting plastic and silicone under your skin to change your body shape is nbd...

There are very few cultures with traditions of more than two genders where those other genders weren't developed as a way to ostracize non-normative behaviour like homosexuality or actual transexuality.

AYRT—there are very few cultures where silicone breast implants, nose jobs, restrictive diets, tanning beds, and highlights combined into some humans doing their best Barbie impression, too.

And how exactly does the existence of self-proclaimed non-binary people hurt cis people or LGBT+ people? You don’t actually believe that NB people are all attempting to “ostracize non-normative behaviior like homosexuality or ‘actual’ transexuality,” do you? Because that’s, er, super paranoid and nonsensical.

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 17:32 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 19:36 (UTC) - Expand

that there are two little boxes and that if you don't fit perfectly into either one of those boxes, then you are somehow not that gender

I don't think non-binary people are implying that, though. They live in the same world we do; they undoubtedly see people embodying gender in a wide array of ways. I'm sure that most non-binary people have seen more than a couple of "effeminate" men who identify as men, and "masculine" women who identify as women. So unless they're idiots, they know that gender is very flexible. Yet they still identify as non-binary - which makes me think there really is something different about how they experience (or don't experience) gender.

No, they are implying it. That's all there is to it, really. Most of them do think that being like the vast majority - not feeling particularly "male" or "female", whatever that may be- makes them somehow special and "other" instead of normal.

We'll just have to disagree.

Agreed.

Yeah, this is what gets me about it. Do they really think that the average person goes around thinking "wow, I sure feel female today!" or things like that? I didn't even know that the concept of feeling male or female was a thing until I saw people talking about it on Tumblr. I understand it in the context of being trans, sure, because in that case it's a matter of your gender not matching your physical body, so of course there's going to be a dissonance there and you're going to notice it. But for people who aren't trans? I'm pretty sure most of them don't put much thought into it at all, even the ones who are stereotypically traditionally masculine or feminine.

It makes me wonder what sort of warped ideas they have about how the majority of people perceive or experience gender.

Or--and get this--like trans people, they don't feel like they match their body! Surprise! I happens!

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 16:15 (UTC) - Expand

Okay, ya big baby. I'm sorry people not identifying as "man" or "woman" hurts you so badly. You sound jealous, tbh, if you think they feel ~special~ and ~not normal.~ It tells a lot about you that you think of them as not normal.

Are gay people not "normal?" What about trans people?

Cis, by the way, but you're just being an ass who doesn't want to change.

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 15:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 16:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 17:33 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-12 19:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What's your opinion on nonbinary identities?

(Anonymous) - 2019-01-13 02:15 (UTC) - Expand

But for Pete's sake, gender in our society is a binary. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with the most rigid, stereotypical ideas of gender roles. But if you look at the way that gender is conceptualized in our society, it's divided into two parts. Therefore, it's binary.

Society also used to think homosexuals should be killed and black people should be slaves or lynched/were lesser. Your argument falls apart when society is an every-changing thing that gets it fucking wrong at times.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only