fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #616 ]

[ SECRET POST #616 ]

⌈ Secret Post #616 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Rank 31! WE HAVE A HUGE BUILDING NOW WOO → [ pop tra sec com ~~ind~~ env ]

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #088.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - what ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Really? I thought the OP missed the point of Elle and HRG's interactions entirely. Elle is a remarkably vulnerable young woman who's been used by her father and the company her entire life. HRG is... morally gray and admits it. He will do anything to keep his family safe, but when he sets his mind on a goal, he's completely ruthless about it. He's never made any bones about being a manipulative bastard. He knows he's manipulating her, and, hell, Elle probably knows it too, but that doesn't change the fact that she's vulnerable and he's giving her things her father never did, so she's going along with it and coming to rely on him in a why that she knows she shouldn't.

It's a bad relationship and I always read as one that both members realized was not healthy in the least.

And why is it ok for Bennet to manipulate a woman who was abused to the point of tortured as a child, and whose abuse he was at the very least complicit in? (I consider being "there" and doing noting about it complicit.) Bennet's called "morally gray", but at every turn, his actions are justified and he never faces consequences or the show's form of divine retributions as what happens with other characters, including Elle. When he's shot in season 1, it's on his own terms. When it happens in season 2, he's painted as the victim who gets to complain about being imprisoned at the Company to Elle. Most of his actions, even ones involving outright murder, are justified by the show because he loves his family, and what happens in season 2 is mainly put on Claire for disobeying him. Elle, on the other hand, is restrained, tortured, and shot, and I don't think is ever portrayed as victim in what Bennet does to her (I've seen both fans and NBC-related sources depicting Elle's torture in 2x09 as funny).

What I don't like, and what the show certainly seems to do, is the portrayal of Bennet's actions toward Elle as justified at every turn. And his actions generally, for that matter. This is not even going into the "Untold Stories" scenes, which portrays Elle as ignorant of the Company she apparently grew up in for the whole purpose of having Bennet lecture her. And this is an overarching context of a show with very few strong female characters and a lot of problems with portrayals of women already. I wouldn't mind it so much if I honestly thought the show was just trying to portray an honest character study, but to me it seems very clear that Bennet's the 'Hero' (as "morally gray" as he's supposed to be) and Elle can't act against him without being a villain again.

Edited 2008-09-13 01:23 (UTC)

When did I say that it was okay? In fact, I said it was a relationship both members were aware was unhealthy. I think that indicates that I'm aware it's not an okay relationship. I think a lot of people (including me) see Bennet as lighter gray than Elle, because Elle is a socially inept sociopath with daddy issues, and Bennet's a socially ept sociopath who's also family man who's goal is to bring down the company specifically so his daughter will be safe.

I think you're misreading how the show portrays him-- you're not supposed to think he's a good guy. A sympathetic man, yes, but sympathetic does not mean justified or good.

I was asking that because, again, I disagree that the show doesn't justify his actions. And while they both may be socially inept sociopaths, from everything we've seen on the show, Bennet made conscious decisions about his life and actions. Elle didn't. Bennet didn't start acting against the Company until he had a personal stake - and I'll say it's my opinion that that isn't good enough, especially from what we've seen of what the Company did. (In fact, in the show, Bennet defends what the Company was while was working for it, stating that it "used to stand for something" but that it had changed since then. According to the time line the show gives us, he would have started working there at the same time Elle was brought in. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the writers hadn't planned Elle out at the point and tend to consistently suck at continuity, but ultimately, it's still there and still serves as a defense of his actions).

And I think the fact that we're supposed to sympathize with him means that they have specifically created scenarios to justify what he does. I don't really see any other reason to sympathize with him after he's murdered and manipulated others, again without the kinds of consequences other characters in the show face in terms of their story lines, unless there's rhyme or reason to it. Which the show creates and respects for him. But while it created reasons for Elle, she faces the consequences, one of which is being a vulnerable character for Bennet to torture and manipulate. And again, I think it's portrayed as something that's ok for him to do, because he's a sympathetic character and he's doing it to protect his family and take the Company down (presumably by turning Elle against Bob or just escaping the Company in general).

Being a sympathetic character does not necessarily mean a justified character. I don't think Bennet is justified, and honestly aside from playing up the "manipulative bastard/loving father" dichotomy, I don't think the show really tries too hard. He does what he thinks he has to and that's pretty much all there is to it. He justifies himself, but that doesn't mean the show is justifying him.

On the other hand, there are reasons for Elle being considered darker and possibly less sympathetic than Bennet (I think that last bit is very YMMV, though). For one thing, she's grown up her entire life in the Company, she has no benchmark of "normalcy", unlike Bennet. Which, again, could make him darker or lighter gray than her, depending on personal taste. Bennet has specific goals that are considered sympathetic-- he wants to protect his daughter and family (see: dichotomy, Bennet's). Elle is pretty completely socially inept, whereas Bennet is completely socially ept, which makes many viewers sympathize with him more because he's simply written to be a more likable fellow. That's who Bennet is-- he's a creepy, manipulative bastard who somehow manages to be the Dad Next Door.

I think Elle is a smart, physically powerful and sometimes psychologically powerful, sympathetic character, but she's not set up to be The Strong Female Character. She's vulnerable, and IMO it's always been pretty obvious that Bennet's taking advantage of that in a fucked-up way. Heroes is full of people manipulating each other in fucked-up ways. Just because they're sympathetic characters doesn't mean it's being presented as not fucked up.

Edited 2008-09-13 03:06 (UTC)

I'd believe that the show wasn't trying to justify him if, again, he faced any of the sorts of consequences other characters have when they do the kinds of things he does. In my point of view, he hasn't.

To me, none of the reasons you've stated for Elle's being less sympathetic were choices she herself made. She didn't choose to grow up in the Company and as a result be socially inept. Bennet chose to work for the Company (and from what we've seen, he was married when he made that choice). I would be ok with Elle being portrayed as less sympathetic if it were because of the fact that she killed Ricky and attempts to kill several others. That it's because of the results of being isolated and as abused as a child really doesn't sit well with me. And again, I'm not sure why Bennet's someone to sympathize with if we're not meant to, at least in part, see merit in his justifications for his actions.

I'm not trying to make Elle out to be the Strong Female Character. I'm saying that I think Bennet is portrayed in a certain way (and within an archetype that isn't uncommon among "badass" male characters) that is separate from other characters who also commit morally questionable actions, and one part of that is the way he treats Elle, and that in part works in to the show's larger framework of issues with women.

I think we have different opinions about what being sympathetic should entail. Because being less sympathetic doesn't have to be a result of a character's own actions. (Although, IMO, the her attempted murders, the way she treated Peter, etc, were all outgrowths of the things I listed. Specifically the "being a socially inept sociopath with extreme daddy issues" part.)

And I still don't think the show particularly tries to justify his actions. "He did it for his family" is his only justification and, as a viewer, you don't have to accept that. Elle is a sympathetic character, and the fact that he's manipulating her isn't to prove he's right or she's right. Neither of them have to be in the right for their lovely, screwed-up relationship (a dark mirror, IMO, of his relationship with Claire) to be interesting.

Personally, though, I don't see Noah as different from the other morally gray characters-- he's a middle management version of Angela to me, so I think we may just have a completely irreconcilable schism in our views of the Heroes universe.

I'd agree that neither of them have to be right in this relationship. Like I said below, I don't mind Bob and Elle's relationship, because Bob is clearly portrayed in a way that to me says 'this is wrong, he's an asshole.' Noah is visibly set apart from Bob in that he didn't do to his daughter what Bob did to Elle, and I believe he's portrayed differently in general, which makes it problematic to me. If anything, what I'm getting from the show is the impression that Noah manipulating Elle may be a form of a teaching her a lesson that leads into or is part of her possible redemption arc... which still makes me uncomfortable.

And as for the Angela comparison - Angela is attacked by Maury and Matt Parkman as a direct result of her actions as part of the Company, and unlike Bennet when he's attacked by Matt and Ted, she isn't able to really take control of the situation or prevent her attackers from getting what they want herself. Both of her sons have at varying points expressed distrust and resentment toward her. At the end of story lines in which Claire expresses the same toward her father, she's either apologizing and crying before he gets himself shot, or apologizing and crying as she spreads his fake ashes. While Peter and Nathan have in turn somewhat reconciled with their mother, I've never seen them feel the need to apologize for what they've said about her, and it's perfectly fair to say that maybe they don't need to. But to me, there's a difference in the portrayal of those two characters.

(And let me stress - it's a portrayal issue to me. I find the actions in and of themselves less problematic than the way the I believe the characters and actions are being portrayed.)

Thank you for saying this all so beautifully. :)

And that's the irreconcilable difference, here. I don't see HRG as being portrayed differently. I think he's portrayed as a guy who is pretty genuinely screwed up in the head. Noah's set apart from Bob because Bob does not actually care about his daughter, where that's part of Noah's fucked-upedness-- that he loves Claire, but he's a ruthless, manipulative jackass and probably will never stop being that. They're different characters and that's okay.

I... completely disagree with the Angela thing, but okay.

Very well put. I agree with everything you say.

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[ SECRET POST #616 ]

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