fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #616 ]

[ SECRET POST #616 ]

⌈ Secret Post #616 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Rank 31! WE HAVE A HUGE BUILDING NOW WOO → [ pop tra sec com ~~ind~~ env ]

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #088.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - what ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

154. I'm more willing to forgive Elle because it seems really clear from the show that we're supposed to see Noah as in the right in the way he treats her, and Elle's just a bitch who deserves it (not her history, but the way everyone else treats her about it). Their scene in "Untold Stories" drove me insane, because it was like the writers went out of their way to not allow her any agency. And there's no way for her to act against it, because from the way the show puts it, Noah's right, so she'd be wrong. Not letting men treat her like crap would be not going along with her "redemption" arc.

And part of the reason I think this is what we're supposed to be getting from the show is that you're the only other person I've seen complaining about this. I'm hoping against hope that it won't be like that in s3, no matter how it looks, but... well, the spoilers having my brain hurting for about a hundred different reasons.

Yes, the show seems to sell this as The Way It Should Be, and this really worries me. What worries me even more is that most fans seem to buy into it, too.
Like you said... no one is complaining, even though they are usually so quick to go on feministic rants about how women are treated on the show.
But Elle's example is worse than, say, Maya's, because the way Sylar treated Maya was clearly shown to be a bad thing. While Bennet's treatment of Elle is downright glorified.

Really? I thought the OP missed the point of Elle and HRG's interactions entirely. Elle is a remarkably vulnerable young woman who's been used by her father and the company her entire life. HRG is... morally gray and admits it. He will do anything to keep his family safe, but when he sets his mind on a goal, he's completely ruthless about it. He's never made any bones about being a manipulative bastard. He knows he's manipulating her, and, hell, Elle probably knows it too, but that doesn't change the fact that she's vulnerable and he's giving her things her father never did, so she's going along with it and coming to rely on him in a why that she knows she shouldn't.

It's a bad relationship and I always read as one that both members realized was not healthy in the least.

And why is it ok for Bennet to manipulate a woman who was abused to the point of tortured as a child, and whose abuse he was at the very least complicit in? (I consider being "there" and doing noting about it complicit.) Bennet's called "morally gray", but at every turn, his actions are justified and he never faces consequences or the show's form of divine retributions as what happens with other characters, including Elle. When he's shot in season 1, it's on his own terms. When it happens in season 2, he's painted as the victim who gets to complain about being imprisoned at the Company to Elle. Most of his actions, even ones involving outright murder, are justified by the show because he loves his family, and what happens in season 2 is mainly put on Claire for disobeying him. Elle, on the other hand, is restrained, tortured, and shot, and I don't think is ever portrayed as victim in what Bennet does to her (I've seen both fans and NBC-related sources depicting Elle's torture in 2x09 as funny).

What I don't like, and what the show certainly seems to do, is the portrayal of Bennet's actions toward Elle as justified at every turn. And his actions generally, for that matter. This is not even going into the "Untold Stories" scenes, which portrays Elle as ignorant of the Company she apparently grew up in for the whole purpose of having Bennet lecture her. And this is an overarching context of a show with very few strong female characters and a lot of problems with portrayals of women already. I wouldn't mind it so much if I honestly thought the show was just trying to portray an honest character study, but to me it seems very clear that Bennet's the 'Hero' (as "morally gray" as he's supposed to be) and Elle can't act against him without being a villain again.

Edited 2008-09-13 01:23 (UTC)

When did I say that it was okay? In fact, I said it was a relationship both members were aware was unhealthy. I think that indicates that I'm aware it's not an okay relationship. I think a lot of people (including me) see Bennet as lighter gray than Elle, because Elle is a socially inept sociopath with daddy issues, and Bennet's a socially ept sociopath who's also family man who's goal is to bring down the company specifically so his daughter will be safe.

I think you're misreading how the show portrays him-- you're not supposed to think he's a good guy. A sympathetic man, yes, but sympathetic does not mean justified or good.

I was asking that because, again, I disagree that the show doesn't justify his actions. And while they both may be socially inept sociopaths, from everything we've seen on the show, Bennet made conscious decisions about his life and actions. Elle didn't. Bennet didn't start acting against the Company until he had a personal stake - and I'll say it's my opinion that that isn't good enough, especially from what we've seen of what the Company did. (In fact, in the show, Bennet defends what the Company was while was working for it, stating that it "used to stand for something" but that it had changed since then. According to the time line the show gives us, he would have started working there at the same time Elle was brought in. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the writers hadn't planned Elle out at the point and tend to consistently suck at continuity, but ultimately, it's still there and still serves as a defense of his actions).

And I think the fact that we're supposed to sympathize with him means that they have specifically created scenarios to justify what he does. I don't really see any other reason to sympathize with him after he's murdered and manipulated others, again without the kinds of consequences other characters in the show face in terms of their story lines, unless there's rhyme or reason to it. Which the show creates and respects for him. But while it created reasons for Elle, she faces the consequences, one of which is being a vulnerable character for Bennet to torture and manipulate. And again, I think it's portrayed as something that's ok for him to do, because he's a sympathetic character and he's doing it to protect his family and take the Company down (presumably by turning Elle against Bob or just escaping the Company in general).

Being a sympathetic character does not necessarily mean a justified character. I don't think Bennet is justified, and honestly aside from playing up the "manipulative bastard/loving father" dichotomy, I don't think the show really tries too hard. He does what he thinks he has to and that's pretty much all there is to it. He justifies himself, but that doesn't mean the show is justifying him.

On the other hand, there are reasons for Elle being considered darker and possibly less sympathetic than Bennet (I think that last bit is very YMMV, though). For one thing, she's grown up her entire life in the Company, she has no benchmark of "normalcy", unlike Bennet. Which, again, could make him darker or lighter gray than her, depending on personal taste. Bennet has specific goals that are considered sympathetic-- he wants to protect his daughter and family (see: dichotomy, Bennet's). Elle is pretty completely socially inept, whereas Bennet is completely socially ept, which makes many viewers sympathize with him more because he's simply written to be a more likable fellow. That's who Bennet is-- he's a creepy, manipulative bastard who somehow manages to be the Dad Next Door.

I think Elle is a smart, physically powerful and sometimes psychologically powerful, sympathetic character, but she's not set up to be The Strong Female Character. She's vulnerable, and IMO it's always been pretty obvious that Bennet's taking advantage of that in a fucked-up way. Heroes is full of people manipulating each other in fucked-up ways. Just because they're sympathetic characters doesn't mean it's being presented as not fucked up.

Edited 2008-09-13 03:06 (UTC)

I'd believe that the show wasn't trying to justify him if, again, he faced any of the sorts of consequences other characters have when they do the kinds of things he does. In my point of view, he hasn't.

To me, none of the reasons you've stated for Elle's being less sympathetic were choices she herself made. She didn't choose to grow up in the Company and as a result be socially inept. Bennet chose to work for the Company (and from what we've seen, he was married when he made that choice). I would be ok with Elle being portrayed as less sympathetic if it were because of the fact that she killed Ricky and attempts to kill several others. That it's because of the results of being isolated and as abused as a child really doesn't sit well with me. And again, I'm not sure why Bennet's someone to sympathize with if we're not meant to, at least in part, see merit in his justifications for his actions.

I'm not trying to make Elle out to be the Strong Female Character. I'm saying that I think Bennet is portrayed in a certain way (and within an archetype that isn't uncommon among "badass" male characters) that is separate from other characters who also commit morally questionable actions, and one part of that is the way he treats Elle, and that in part works in to the show's larger framework of issues with women.

I think we have different opinions about what being sympathetic should entail. Because being less sympathetic doesn't have to be a result of a character's own actions. (Although, IMO, the her attempted murders, the way she treated Peter, etc, were all outgrowths of the things I listed. Specifically the "being a socially inept sociopath with extreme daddy issues" part.)

And I still don't think the show particularly tries to justify his actions. "He did it for his family" is his only justification and, as a viewer, you don't have to accept that. Elle is a sympathetic character, and the fact that he's manipulating her isn't to prove he's right or she's right. Neither of them have to be in the right for their lovely, screwed-up relationship (a dark mirror, IMO, of his relationship with Claire) to be interesting.

Personally, though, I don't see Noah as different from the other morally gray characters-- he's a middle management version of Angela to me, so I think we may just have a completely irreconcilable schism in our views of the Heroes universe.

I'd agree that neither of them have to be right in this relationship. Like I said below, I don't mind Bob and Elle's relationship, because Bob is clearly portrayed in a way that to me says 'this is wrong, he's an asshole.' Noah is visibly set apart from Bob in that he didn't do to his daughter what Bob did to Elle, and I believe he's portrayed differently in general, which makes it problematic to me. If anything, what I'm getting from the show is the impression that Noah manipulating Elle may be a form of a teaching her a lesson that leads into or is part of her possible redemption arc... which still makes me uncomfortable.

And as for the Angela comparison - Angela is attacked by Maury and Matt Parkman as a direct result of her actions as part of the Company, and unlike Bennet when he's attacked by Matt and Ted, she isn't able to really take control of the situation or prevent her attackers from getting what they want herself. Both of her sons have at varying points expressed distrust and resentment toward her. At the end of story lines in which Claire expresses the same toward her father, she's either apologizing and crying before he gets himself shot, or apologizing and crying as she spreads his fake ashes. While Peter and Nathan have in turn somewhat reconciled with their mother, I've never seen them feel the need to apologize for what they've said about her, and it's perfectly fair to say that maybe they don't need to. But to me, there's a difference in the portrayal of those two characters.

(And let me stress - it's a portrayal issue to me. I find the actions in and of themselves less problematic than the way the I believe the characters and actions are being portrayed.)

Thank you for saying this all so beautifully. :)

And that's the irreconcilable difference, here. I don't see HRG as being portrayed differently. I think he's portrayed as a guy who is pretty genuinely screwed up in the head. Noah's set apart from Bob because Bob does not actually care about his daughter, where that's part of Noah's fucked-upedness-- that he loves Claire, but he's a ruthless, manipulative jackass and probably will never stop being that. They're different characters and that's okay.

I... completely disagree with the Angela thing, but okay.

Very well put. I agree with everything you say.

See, I'm not sure that we're ever really meant to see anything HRG does as "justified." The way I see it, the whole point of his character is that he's totally amoral and totally devoted to his family. The only justification he ever uses for himself is loyalty to family, and before Claire was in danger from The Company, loyalty to his employers. Even now, his motivation of bringing down the Company is entirely rooted in his more basic motivation of protecting his family, i.e., Claire.

So are we supposed to agree with everything he does? No. I have little doubt that if/when Mohinder gets the details, he'll be aghast, because Mohinder is one of the few characters on the show who has much in the way of morals. Him and Peter and Hiro, although even the three of them were on some pretty shaky ground in s2. The show doesn't really have many characters I feel comfortable rooting for, and I generally have to settle for rooting against other characters.

Of course, I can't expect that fandom will agree with me on this. Most of the people who hang out in fandom like to have someone they can root for unconditionally, and some of them have some pretty weird taste in who that is.

I don't disagree that I don't think we're supposed to support everything he does. But I do think the show gives him ground that it doesn't afford to other characters who make similar choices (to use a not Elle example here: Isaac ends up recruited by the Company through a combination of altruistic and selfish motivations, accidentally kills Simone, and then in what is described by the actor himself as something that was "coming" as a result, is killed by Sylar. Elle is probably a neater example in that her being tortured and shot didn't, I think, portray her as victim of Bennet, while Bennet was portrayed as a victim of the Company after he was shot, despite that Mohinder had done it because he was very, very clearly about to kill Bob. I cannot think of a single example in which Bennet faces some sort of consequence for his actions in which it is not on his own terms, or he is not fully portrayed as the one who is being wronged. The closest I can think is the seizure of his house by Matt and Ted, and again, I felt like a lot of that episode focused on explaining and at times justifying his actions and therefore making him sympathetic).

Look, if I had seen any indication from the show makers that describes Elle and Bennet's relationship as him manipulating her and that being a bad thing, I'd be more willing to believe that was what they intended. I haven't seen that - it's not talked about much at all, and the only time I really remember it coming up was Kristen from E! (which, for however you deem her as an interviewer) asking Jack Coleman if Bennet was going to "get back" at Elle. And his answer was mainly vague, in part because I don't think they'd started much of s3 at that time and were still sort of working off the scrapped continuation of s2 plans. But I've never seen anything short of how awesome Bennet is and how awesome his "morally grayness" is. Which calls in to question, to me, just how "morally gray" he's really being portrayed.

Let me put it this way: I don't mind that Elle's father is an asshole to her and that she still craves his approval. Bob is an asshole and is consistently portrayed as such. The same logic doesn't hold true to Bennet for me.

Edited 2008-09-13 03:27 (UTC)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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