fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4474 ]

[ SECRET POST #4474 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4474 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Genie and Jafar from Aladdin]

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03.

[Project Runway (Afa)]

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04.

[life of pi]

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05.

[Chris Evans]

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06.

[Star Trek: Discovery]

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07.

[Suicide Squad]

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08.

[historian, author, and presenter Lucy Worsley]

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09.

[Good Omens, by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 57 secrets from Secret Submission Post #641.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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09. https://i.imgur.com/MLxEccr.png
[Good Omens, by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman]

I agree with this. I always got the sense that Crowley and Aziraphale were asexual creatures that had formed a bond of contentious friendship during their time as agents on earth. And that they both had a common goal of making the sure the good times continued a-rolling, with the "good times" defined as a very much alive earth/humanity.

But it's nice that both Pratchett and Gaiman were perfectly okay with however people wanted to interpret that relationship.

I guess I don't see why this secret is all that wanky. And I think a lot of people on here wouldn't disagree with it (even the A/C shippers). Other fandom spaces? I dunno. I feel like I'm out of the loop there.

Edited 2019-04-06 19:39 (UTC)

Depends on what fandom space you're in, I think. There are definitely some people who'd take offense and consider it homophobic to have the OTP declared canonically not gay.

"People who think Aziraphale and Crowley are boning are unconsciously prejudiced against non-romantic male bonds" is kind of a wanky opinion

Eh. The secret is strongly worded, but I guess I can see someone getting frustrated if the thing that turns their crank is platonic friendships and all they see is ship-fic. I mean, the OP was expressing the same frustration with turning platonic M/F relationships into romantic ones, so I'm not convinced they're specifically targeting M/M.

In all honesty, when it comes to Good Omens, I personally think it's a case of "you do you." The relationship is written in such a way that you can read whatever you want in it. If you see a layered friendship, fine. If you see a romantic relationship, fine.

It's a closed-canon, stand-alone piece of work where the authors had no strong feelings one way or the other about how fans saw the A/C relationship. And as far as I know, Good Omens fandom never got wanky over it.

Now if someone, somewhere loses their minds and turns the mini-series into a full-blown continuing series, then all bets are off on the ship-wank front.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2019-04-07 01:29 (UTC) - Expand

SA

(Anonymous) - 2019-04-07 01:35 (UTC) - Expand

100% agreed, on all counts.

i mean, yeah, but taking "proof" from canon is how it works in academics, and lots of us were or are studying the queering of sources. it's a proud tradition!

Er... in academics, it's proof, not "proof". Fandom's standards are far more relaxed, as they should be.

Blehhhh.

I think there's a broader point to be made here about coding, intentionality, and textual interpretation but I'm not sure I have enough energy to go into the whole thing. But I'm definitely really, really deeply skeptical about the idea that there's "an unconscious prejudice about the impossibility of deep platonic male bonds without romance/sex being involved". Honestly seems like kind of a shitty thing to say. And I don't think - regardless of the intentions of the authors - people who interpret it as romantic/sexual are reading the book incorrectly. It's a valid interpretation.

I agree, Anon. We have platonic m/m relationships out the wazoo in tv, movies, and literature - maybe some of us are just tired of that.

I ship it but I also think that canonically strong non-sexual friendships (of all gender combinations) are awesome and shouldn't be trashed at all. To each their own, but I wish people would just in general like what they like and just chill.

+1000

+2000

I ship it like a alot, but yeah. Me too, anon. Me too.

Nice fanart. Who's the artist?

Google reverse image search suggests it's Blair Zhou:

https://blairz.carbonmade.com/projects/6061140

(need to scroll to see both)

I agree, and I do ship them.

I didn't ship them when I first read the book. I didn't oppose the ship then, it just didn't occur to me, despite that part where Anathema thinks they're a couple or where it's said Aziraphale comes across as "gayer than a tree full of monkeys on nitrous oxide." Years later I encountered Aziraphale/Crowley slash and thought, "Oh, that works!" It's always been kind of a lark, though, not some deeply held part of my world view that I need to have validated. I thought it was neat that Gaiman didn't mind people shipping them (not sure I ever heard Pratchett's thought on the matter, but sounds like he didn't mind, either), and with the book having been a one-shot, closed canon, I haven't needed any more than that. I still don't need that from the TV version. As long as they're still an entertaining duo - and I can't imagine how they could not be - then they are shippable and it's fine with me if they aren't more canon than in the book.

Meh.

M/M platonic 'ships are *everywhere* - not like that's something new. Maybe we're just tired to death of that? And the (usual but not always) No Homo shite that goes along with it?

And since when did m/f friendship in tv or movies without a sexual component become common or even endgame? I'd say 90 percent of the time, they end up in some kind of romantic or sexual 'ship, too (which is also boring as fuck).

I mean, plenty of male/male deep platonic relationships still exist in fiction, it just usually includes some sort of variation of thinking of each other as brothers. On the other hand I’m trying to think of an emotionally close, deep, and completely platonic m/f relationship in media and nothing is coming to mind. So I think it’s worse with m/f than m/m (though I agree when media doesn’t throw the brother word out there people are way more likely to see m/m as sexual, and on the other other hand people tend to see f/f as only platonic waaaay more often)

It's more of an adoptive father/daughter thing but Gerald and Cirilla in The Witcher games are completely platonic unrelated.

Adoptive Father/Daughter relationships are common in media. It's not the same as friendships.

ichigo+rukia from bleach maybe? they def had a very close bond in any case. otherwise yeah, deep, close, or even profound m/f bonds in media simply don't exist or always, always become romantic and even when the showrunners stare that it will never happen: 9/10 it does.

m/m and f/f just have the opposite problem where they will never be considered for a romantic relationship bc 'they're just friends you silly!'.

but i will say there are more canon m/m and f/f ships being put into media these days, more in TV or games than movies i'll grant, movies still have a way to go imo. but whether those ships will have the 'deep and profound connection' that some fans want is another matter entirely.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2019-04-07 02:55 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2019-04-07 14:20 (UTC) - Expand

Yuri and Estelle from Tales of Vesperia. The voice actors themselves have gone on record saying they played it as a sibling-esque relationship with nothing romantic there.

I think it's difficult to argue any side of this because they're not human and their relationship is a hundred times more intricate and layered than just two guys who want to bone.

Besides, even if TP&NG didn't intend it to be canon within the events of the books, there's thousands of years of backstory to fill in as well as the aftermath of the almost-apocalypse.

I mean, it's really not a reach.

SA

Managed to delete my last paragraph.

I mean it's really not a reach. However, because they are an angel and a demon who are thousands of years old, I also don't think lack of them boning precludes the idea of their story as being a love story for the ages. I just don't think sex, beyond a useful tool in wiling humans, would be important to them.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2019-04-07 01:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2019-04-07 03:11 (UTC) - Expand

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