Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-09-19 05:13 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-09-19 05:13 pm
[ SECRET POST #623 ]
⌈ Secret Post #623 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
1. Check out
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif){kind=small}
ljconfesses if you haven't!2. CITY STUFF → [ pop ]
3. Also, for anyone who needs people to click links for games, this site is really helpful: http://swle.yarold.eu/?id=3809
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #089.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 6 - trolls ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)And you may not have seen any, but it sure exists. You're very correct in your statement that you're missing out on a lot of discussion.
Yes, I agree to an extent. Sometimes people do have legitimate reasons for disliking female characters. And sometimes they don't. I don't think it's fair for you to assume either way, because saying that fans who have a 'visceral dislike' of Lenalee ALL have legitimate, emotional reasons for doing so is also a sweeping statement. Some people, frankly, are just not defensible in their opinions. They might just be salty bastards with deep-seated prejudices that they aren't willing to look into and change. Some people are like that, unfortunately.
I tend to take offensive statements about her at face value. If a person wants to explain exactly why they have issues with Lenalee, I'll happily listen, and there may be some underlying reasons that I can relate with if they're actually legitimate. 'She gets in the way of yaoi' would be an illegitimate reason to dislike her, in my opinion. But there are many fans who think that way, and I don't understand just how they're defensible on grounds of character misinterpretation when the fact that she's Lenalee takes a backseat to the fact that she's a Female Character.
Maybe so. I don't know that person, to be honest, so I can't say either way. But I think it's a reasonable suggestion of why some fans feel hatred towards Lenalee, even if it wasn't presented in the best of ways.
Either way, I don't really think we're going to find middle ground on this. I appreciate the chance for discussion, but I'd like to pull out, because I don't think either of us are going to see eye to eye on some of these issues. Thanks anyway, though.
Re: 123
I think the problem lies with the canon here; Linali loses her innocence and spend lots of time passively unable to do anything about it, and in the end she is given it back by someone else (not her fault! but still annoying), while Allen, as soon as he wakes up, is told that he can get it back himself if he tries hard enough (and after coming to a realisation about himself, that's exactly what happens).
It's once again the active/passive division that annoys me, and that also annoy a lot of other people (sometimes subconsciously).
You're very correct in your statement that you're missing out on a lot of discussion.
Yeah, I've been looking for meta, but I haven't had time to search through journals, and nothing much seem to happen in the comms (or I'm looking at the wrong comms). Could you point me somewhere? I'd like to discuss anything about DGM.
I don't think it's fair for you to assume either way, because saying that fans who have a 'visceral dislike' of Lenalee ALL have legitimate, emotional reasons for doing so is also a sweeping statement.
I try not to make assumptions. Having a visceral emotional dislike is not an excuse for attacks, (and I think that you should seriously consider why you feel so strongly about a character if you do). I don't think that sort of reaction is valid criticism of a character at all. I think it's a result of someone not thinking their reactions through, simple as that.
I also think it can be a symptom of a person being an idiot, but I'm certainly not going to judge everyone who has an emotional reaction. First, I always like to try reason, heh.
'She gets in the way of yaoi' would be an illegitimate reason to dislike her, in my opinion.
Yeah, because that's simply idiotic. That's not considering her as a character, that's just seeing an obstacle (which isn't even an issue in her care, IIRC). It's a reaction I've run into in other fandoms where I'm more active, but it's always been very, very rare.
But I think it's a reasonable suggestion of why some fans feel hatred towards Lenalee, even if it wasn't presented in the best of ways.
No, it bloody well isn't. Dismissing a bunch of women because they're "hormonal bitches" is precisely what misogynists do; it suggests that women are unreasonable and completely in the grip of their hormones, unable to hold a logical argument. That is not the way to deal with misogyny.
Either way, I don't really think we're going to find middle ground on this.
Well, I wasn't trying to accomplish anything in particular; I just like discussion (so again, if you happen to have one or two meta links...?). I find it very rewarding, both when it comes to further understand people, and seeing the subject in a new light.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)Or perhaps it's just a combination of that and interpretations of canon, but something rubs me the wrong way when, time after time, Lenalee is the only character singled out for it. Perhaps it's just because there's no male character who has gone through similar experiences. But when a female character is held to a different standard than a male, I tend to assume that it's because of sexist attitudes. And Lenalee, like it or not, is held to a different standard.
I find it very, very difficult to contribute that entirely to how people are interpreting canon. But that's just my opinion. I don't think that this is a zero-sum game. Maybe canon is partially to blame, but I feel like you're stepping around the idea that some people hold sexist notions. And many people do hold biases like that against characters regardless of canon, and I think that's a major part of why some fans have issues with Lenalee. Not all, just some. Is it right to assume that all problems that fans have with a character is due to a misunderstanding with the source material? Isn't is equally valid to assume that, at least in part, some sexist attitudes are at work as well? I definitely think so.
I honestly don't have any good meta to point you to.
Okay, you got me. But in my defense, I wasn't saying that I agreed with the idea that all women are under the influence of hormones and can't make good arguments. I disagree with that, and I hate that attitude. What I did agree with in her post, however, even though it was presented badly, was that the reason so many fans are hostile towards Lenalee is because they are territorial over other characters. That territorality is a trait common to both male and female fans of any series.
Fair enough, then. It's nice to discuss this, anyway.
Re: 123
That female characters always takes the passive role is a great source of annoyance for me and many others. Kanda and Lavi both have very different reactions to losing their innocence; for one, they continue to fight even without it! Linali is rendered helpless (by canon), locked up and cast into a passive role. I can't tell you how happy I was when she regained her innocence!
Her characterisation fluctuates a lot, but most of the time I like her very much.
There's also the fact that people generally do criticise male characters. To great extent in many cases! It's just more evident with female characters as there are usually just one, sometimes two, to pick from. When you criticise her, you're essentially criticising all, or half of the female characters! That fans who love Lavi and Kanda can be very critical of Allen is much less noticable.
I expressed my intense dislike of Cross (though I forgave him for a lot of things recently), but what did that matter? He was only one of many and varied male characters in the cast. It's hard to do the same with female characters.
But when a female character is held to a different standard than a male, I tend to assume that it's because of sexist attitudes.
I disagree. For the reasons I gave earlier and just above, I think the main problem is the portrayal of female characters in canon. You can't expect women to like a character simply because it's a female character; it still has to be a good character.
And Lenalee, like it or not, is held to a different standard.
Isn't she held to the same standard, and simply fails to measure up? of course, personally I think she does measure up, most of the time. I criticise her in some ways, but I do that with all characters.
I find it very, very difficult to contribute that entirely to how people are interpreting canon.
It's not about interpreting the canon, it's about the problems the creator of the canon has with the view of women, and that those are passed on into the canon. It's a problem that stems from how society views women, and one reason why it's so important to view female characters with a critical eye. We should not be satisfied with crumbs, damn it!
Maybe canon is partially to blame, but I feel like you're stepping around the idea that some people hold sexist notions.
I'm very aware of the fact that we're living in a sexist society, and that most of us do sexist things without even being aware of it. I just think that
1: Criticising a female character is not a sexist act in and of itself, and
2: The canon portrayal of female characters are very often sexist, and criticising that is a good thing.
Isn't is equally valid to assume that, at least in part, some sexist attitudes are at work as well?
Yes, I'm not trying to say that sexism in fandom is non-existant after all! It's everywhere in society. I'm just opposed to the notion that most, or even large parts of fandom are sexist. I think it's less common in fandom than many other places, actually (though it can vary a lot between fandoms).
the reason so many fans are hostile towards Lenalee is because they are territorial over other characters.
Yeah, I don't like that at all. It makes people unreasonable, and they make a bunch of assumptions about canon that's just.. out there. I just think it's because they're idiots, not because they're women with hormones.
I love discussions; they make me happy!
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 07:20 am (UTC)(link)And unlike Kanda and Ravi, Lenalee was so injured by her fight against the level 3 akuma that she was barely able to walk without assistance. When it came time to face the level 4 akuma, both of them had no mobility or physical issues facing them aside from having no Innocence, which Lenalee had on TOP of being injured.
And no, I don't expect female fans to like or dislike female characters based on factors like their sex. I don't expect anyone to do the same with any character of any trait. But my problem here isn't with canon. It's with fan attitudes towards canon that may or may not reflect deeply ingrained sexist attitudes.
And yes, I find a big, big problem with female characters being held to different standards than male characters, because frankly, I wouldn't hold an African American character or a Jewish character to a different standard than a Caucasian character. With that logic, the traits that they have--being female, for example--are the reason that they're being singled out in the first place, when those traits should be irrelevant to things like fighting skill and development. Why should they be relevant? Why should Lenalee be held to a different standard than, say, Allen, all factors other than their sex aside?
I'd be more likely to agree with you assessment about Hoshino possibly having sexist attitudes that spill over into her work, but I just don't think, looking at her other female characters and her portrayal of Lenalee, that that's the case. It is with plenty of authors, and I'm more than willing to call sexism on them when I see it. But I'm not seeing it in D.Gray-man canon. Which is why I'm more likely to point fingers at fans, because the material they're interpreting doesn't, in my opinion, reflect any sort of attitude of the author's about women in Lenalee's case.
She's a distinct character who's had different development and experiences than other characters, and I don't feel like Hoshino has made the fact that she's female any sort of issue or stepping stone with her. She's just an exorcist with her own set of problems who happens to be female, so I don't think that she should be judged on a different scale with a similar exorcist who happens to be male purely on the basis of their sexes.
Furthermore, here's another link that you might be interested in: http://nagaina-ryuuoh.livejournal.com/291992.html#cutid1
Re: 123
I'm talking about passive in a meta sense, here; even though she actively tries to make her innocence work, nothing comes out of it. It's not until after being completely unable to do anything during a crisis and made a prize to be saved (their princess? Good grief) she is allowed to regain it.
You'll notice that the male characters are simply not put in a position like that; even when they haven't got their innocence, they're still able to fight, or they're simply off somewhere recuperating.
I don't call that 'taking a passive role.'
No, that's being forced into a passive role by canon. She wanted to do things but was rendered completely unable to.
When it came time to face the level 4 akuma, both of them had no mobility or physical issues facing them aside from having no Innocence, which Lenalee had on TOP of being injured.
This is actually exactly my point; why is this the case? Why is it that male characters are not placed in a completely helpless situaion while female characters are? These are the hidden ways a sexist society works; we do things unthinkingly and unintentionally, reinforcing stereotypes while (probably) not wanting to.
And yes, I find a big, big problem with female characters being held to different standards than male characters
Well, who doesn't? But you cannot be sure that people are actually doing this unless you can read their minds (except in the very few cases where it's obvious), since female characters are usually held to different standards by canon; what if the dislike people feel is the result of the unequal roles men and women are dealt in a particular canon?
about Hoshino possibly having sexist attitudes
Oh, I don't think she does, not more than people in general. I just think she unconsciously influenced by living in a sexist society, making that spill over into her work occasionally. Very few works of fiction (if any) escape the traces of sexism completely.
I don't think that she should be judged on a different scale with a similar exorcist who happens to be male purely on the basis of their sexes.
This is also a point I'm trying to make. I am comparing her to the way male characters are treated in canon, and I'm finding discrepancies. This is a problem I think should be discussed.
Thank you for the link (and the one before!)
Well, I certainly agree that Linali's not a Mary Sue. I think the author there is wrong about the state of her innocence being comparable to Kanda's and Krory's, but it was similar to Allen's, and that means she's not breaking the rules of the canon world, and thus not a Sue. Especially now when it's been theorised that all equip types of innocence could evolve the same way.
From what I can discern, the people calling her a Sue seem to have mistaken hints of sexism (Breasts suddenly appearing bigger? Revealing clothing? Suddenly put in a helpless position unable to do anything but wait for someone to save her? Yeah.) for Sue traits, and simply reacted to that.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 03:04 pm (UTC)(link)The way I see it, Hoshino may be influenced by the sexist views in society, or she may not be. There may be some subconscious ideas about women at work that led her to unwittingly put Lenalee in positions that the male characters would not be put in. Of course, I don't think either of us will ever know for sure. She might have chosen to write Lenalee, Allen, or any other characters into certain situations like that for reasons that we as readers can't really interpret. But it is something to think about.
And no, I'm no mind-reader. I've been drawing on my own personal experiences with fans who dislike Lenalee, and some of them have admitted that the problems they have with her lie in her portrayal as a female character. I can understand that to an extent, even though I myself don't take issue with the portrayal of female characters in D.Gray-man.
Yet still, some other fans were not able to provide a legitimate reason for disliking her or holding her to a different standard. I guess it's cynical of me to automatically assume that many fans who dislike her will be more inclined towards the last option. Or is it? I've found in some fandoms that quite a few fans simply don't take time to think about gender theory or how they're wrongfully interpreting characters based on traits that are beyond the character's control. And they should, because everyone should.
Re: 123
Yeah, I mean, I think the female characters in DGM (and FMA for that matter) are all very good characters, really. The problems with them are just very, very subtle, and can create antipathy in people not prone to analysis. As you said, some people just don't think much about gender theory.
I just think that in general it's better to try and get a discussion going about why someone dislike her, and pick apart their reasoning until they ses the real problem. Or, alternatively, that there isn't much of a problem. Accusations will only make them more stubborn in their wilful dislike, I think.
She might have chosen to write Lenalee, Allen, or any other characters into certain situations like that for reasons that we as readers can't really interpret.
Imagine a world where, for example, The Millennium Earl, Cross and Sokaro would have been female, Miranda male, there being as many female as male exorcists without it changing a single thing in their personalities or the story. Seems impossible, doesn't it? That's how far we are from being free of sexist reasoning.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)Sadly, that's true. In the meantime, though, Leverrier can keep his biological sex. Haha.
Re: 123