fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4565 ]

[ SECRET POST #4565 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4565 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Lion King (2019)]

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[Cassandra Clare]

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[The Witcher]

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[The Liar Princess and the Blind Prince]

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[Dark]

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[That Guy With Glasses/Channel Awesome/ #ChangeTheChannel]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 56 secrets from Secret Submission Post #654.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Technically, everything is xenophobia since race is a pretty loaded term that's usually inaccurate as hell and also steeped in Nazi-ideology.

But apart from that: It very much counts as racism depending on the definition you use.

No.

The Nazis did not invent racism.

White people can't be racist against white people. Hating someone for where they come from is 100% different for hating someone for the colour of their skin or the colour of their ancestors. Both are bullshit but they are different.

No they didn't but the term "race" is very much a loaded term deeply intertwined with Nazi ideology and racism is very much connected to it on behalf of, you know, having the same word at it's root. I am not at all comfortable with casually throwing the word "race" around.

And white people can very much be racist against other white people of a different ethnicity. Skin colour isn't everything, there were a number of ideologies who made a clear distinction between "superior and inferior light skinned races". It was a thing, and still is.

No, it isn't. Race and racism were loaded terms before Hiter appeared. It just happened that not enough people took them seriously enough.

Racism and Xenphobia are different things. The issue is that Xenophobia is not taken seriously enough. What you describe is xenophobia, not racism. Bullshit? Yes. But not racism.

I never said that the Nazis invented those terms. But they very prominently used them.
And it's both. It is xenophobia but it is also racism. It's not that hard. I've yet to see you give any argument why it's not racism other than "white people can't be racist towards white people" which is untrue.

It really really is true and if you don't believe or accept that then this conversation is over and pointless.

It sure is, seeing as you are either unwilling or unable to give any arguments for your belief other than "but it is so true".

The Sami were the object of a lot of curious research on skull size and shape that would allegedly prove their lesser intelligence compared to the non-Sami Scandinavians. "Slavophobia" has its own Wikipedia page. A brief look at the article on anti-Irish sentiment seems to suggest that the Irish faced something comparable.

All these groups are white, and as soon as the nineteenth century rolled along with its theories of human races, racial science was used as an explanation for their "inferiority".

yes but this is still white on white bs. one part of the same 'race' ie white people attacking another.

Xenophobia needs to be taken more seriously but that does not mean the problem is the same as with white people and other races.

You have a very limited understanding of how the term race is used. It's not exclusively tied to skin colour.

I am aware of that. But I stand by the white groups that have been described in these threads cannot be victims of racism. Xenophobia is the term appropriate for the issues already described.

I am also more aware than you might think but feel free to judge without questioning yourself.

Well as long as you believe in it. Doesn't make it true, but you do you.

♥

"white" is not a simple term. It's a loaded category that's largely socially constructed and can change significantly over time and place. "you can't be racist against white people" is a true statement in America but it's not necessarily the best lens to use to understand ethnic and racial relationships in general, and the way that for example the Nazis treated Jews and Slavic groups definitely could reasonably be called racist in a meaningful sense.

It is a true statement everywhere.

The statement elsewhere is 'xenophobic'. It should be taken more seriously and isn't. Not my fault on that.

It is for the Jewish community to decide where they identify. As far as I have seen most do not identify as white given their ancestry but again, no business of mine there.

And yeah, no. The treatment by the Nazis of Eastern European populations was horrendous but it still falls under modern terms of xenophobia.

It absolutely does not. The Nazis understood Germanic and Slavic peoples as distinct races in a genetic, scientific, ideological sense and determined their treatment of them on that basis, not simply on the basis of dislike of them as foreign. They thought they were superior, as a race, to Slavs, as a race. Please explain what specific characteristics Nazi race science and race ideology would have needed to be properly called 'racist'. Because I sure as hell can't see it.

To have a different colour of skin to those they oppressed. For their oppressed people to have descended from non-white people. That is what racism is deemed today.

White on white. European on European is deemed xenophobia.

It does sound brutal but it is reality. People need to take xenophobia more seriously. I get it. My people have been downtrodden for centuries and if we could use the work 'racism' we might get a hearing but it isn't and we can't and don't.

Just because Nazi scientists didn't know an atom from their arsehole doesn't create racism.

Re: Unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2019-07-07 01:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular opinions

ayebydan - 2019-07-07 01:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2019-07-07 01:38 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular opinions

ayebydan - 2019-07-07 01:44 (UTC) - Expand

one part of the same 'race' ie white people attacking another.

No, that's exactly the point: once science could justify it, the discrimination of these groups was supported by the argument that they were racially inferior. "White" is a concept that has only existed in Europe for maybe the last fifty years. Before that, it was us and the heathens, but that sure didn't stop us from discriminating each other because tainted blood/worse bred/genetically inferior for centuries.

I don't like throwing my qualifications around but I am a historian and that is just not true. It has been here for centuries. Or certainly in Britain it has. IT fueled the racist missions of the Empire.

If you are a historian then you sure missed a big chunk of your education if you think racism is based on skin colour alone.

Re: Unpopular opinions

ayebydan - 2019-07-07 01:24 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2019-07-07 07:20 (UTC) - Expand

Ugh. Let me try to re-phrase:

The difference between white and non-white skin colour is undeniably a thing, but until fairly recently, the existence of non-white people was a theoretical for almost all Europeans; they lived in Africa and China and India and were heathens and possibly cannibals.

The common presence of non-white people and the necessity of acknowledging ourselves as racially marked (white) in difference to the others around us is not something Europe has been doing for a very long time. The fact that we were all white didn't stop us from using biology as an argument against whatever out-group we wanted to push down.

Re: Unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2019-07-07 01:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular opinions

ayebydan - 2019-07-07 01:26 (UTC) - Expand

Ah yes, good old Social Darwinism.
"Scientists" in the field of Phrenology also tried very hard to prove that criminals more often than not shared traits with those "lesser" races (such as Irish people etc.).

My ancestors were Irish, they immigrated here during the potato famine. There were many, many places that would not employ them at all just because they were Irish. There were also many places that would not allow them to live there due to being Irish. They faced exactly the same sort of social discrimination that blacks did despite having white skin.

Yup. Swedish race biologist Herman Lundborg also added Finns to the "inferior" list, which... yeah just try to claim they're non-white. All this added to the scandal when it came out he made the Finnish-Sami cleaner at his institution pregnant.

But nooo, Sami are only white NOW because there were programs to "outbreed" their skin color by making sure they married white Scandinavians! ...yes, I saw someone argue that in all seriousness.

What, no way. Historically, white racism was absolutely a thing - take Irish immigrants in America. Italians. White Jews. You're suggesting I guess that all ethnic groups that fall under the 2019 category "white" look alike or something and therefore can't experience racism.

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