[ SECRET POST #4614 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4614 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 43 secrets from Secret Submission Post #661.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a feminist and I write/read non con fic and agree that we need more talk around women's sexuality in society.
Having said that, it's far more nuanced than that.
I personally am creeped out by the amount of people on this thread who are defending writing and reading/drawing art that involves children. I don't care that it's 'not real' that's just making an excuse.
If it's that people are working through their own abuse issues with the art/fan fic, then that makes sense to me.
For the others though, maybe rather than being all defensive, wonder why you're getting off on stuff to do with CHILDREN? Or defending stuff that has to do with CHILDREN? Again, if it's a story that deals with abuse and the person is now an adult working through what happened to them as a child, or even a child dealing then that could be a well written story.
But there is a difference to me of someone wanting to explore the horrific result of child abuse through story and someone who's just writing a story to get off.
Example- I once stumbled across a fic where Loki (explicitly described as 12) is a male prostitute and Tony (20s) is in a relationship with him and it's a 'loving' relationship (I skimmed the first chapter and then stopped in disgust). The author didn't seem to notice (or care) that they had made Tony friggen Stark a paedophile! All the comments on the fic were gushing and one person who did point out that Tony STark was now a paedophile was condemned by the other readers!
Fuck! It's not difficult. Do I think people should be harassed? Hell no! But maybe these 'antis' are frustrated because they're constantly coming across people *cough* like who keep showing up here on fandomsecrets- who keep justifying wanting to write/read/consume some messed up stuff and then defending themselves.

[(Anonymous)]

Look, "won't anybody think about the children?!" is not and has never been a real defense against anything. I wholeheartedly endorse people writing things just as messed up and depraved as they want, because it is literally harmless. You have the ability to see that someone has written a fic about a 12-year-old prostitute Loki getting stuffed by a grown-ass man and make the choice to keep scrolling; if you read it and get offended like-- what did you expect would happen?

And I don't care if people get offended. The writers don't deserve to be harassed. They were not writing this fic at you and you're not some sort of holy moral victor by whining at them that they're bad people who should feel bad.

I'm into shit in fiction that I would never touch in real life. I find fictional incest hot as fuck; I would never in a million years find any of my family members attractive. This is because-- and I realize that I'm repeating a point here, but a lot of you don't seem to get it-- there is a disconnect between fiction and reality and most of us know that. Like, do you think the mass shooters in the US lately actually learned it from video games? And if you do, can you explain to me how millions of people manage to play shooters and not go out and murder people?

[(Anonymous)]

I have a slightly different take on this: They can register disgust at the story in an appropriate setting (like in a secrets comm, or on their own blog).

But not a) in the comments of the fic (as long as it was appropriately tagged) and b) not in a way that incites others to harass them, like perhaps naming the title of the fic/the author, as opposed to making it a more vague rant.

And it does not seem like they did either of those things.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT, and same. At this point, I dunno if I should call myself an anti for thinking fictional child porn is disgusting and so are a lot of the people who get off on it, or hating a couple of villains for the awful shit they do.

So many, idk, anti-antis say that they’re just railing against antis for doxxing people and sending death threats and so on, but I really hope the people freaking out about antis for actual heinous shit like razor blade pastries aren’t the same people who react to any hint of criticism of their creepy kinks or favorite heartless villain characters as though antis murdered their dog.

A group of “antis” saying “x character is a fucking monster who should be strapped to a rocket and fired into the sun,” or “jfc what the fuck is wrong with people, an eight year old fucking an adult is horrifying, not sexy” to each other or in a public forum, properly password protected, or labeled with anti tags, or whatever’s an appropriate warning for fans of the thing the antis are being antis about, isn’t the end of the fucking world and doesn’t herald the unstoppable rise of the Thought Police.

I like some questionable stuff myself, and as long as people tag stuff anti-“questionable stuff I like” and don’t try to get me fired for liking it, I don’t care. But damn am I sick of people reacting to people saying “ew, that’s disgusting,” or “guys, this makes me uncomfortable, I shouldn’t have to stumble on stuff like this with no warning” as though the next step on from “I hate x thing,” or even “I don’t want to interact with fans of x thing” is book burnings and reeducation camps.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you are allowed to think whatever you want, you're just not always allowed to act based on your thoughts about those topics. And this is the difference with antis we all want to fuck off from our fandoms.

I find child porn in general disgusting, but 15-17yo characters having sex with people who are 20-30 (which, iirc, is the main age range of pairings being attacked) is not by default disgusting and isn't even considered child porn by definition of that word. You can find it disgusting, I find it disgusting in some specific cases, but you should just accept that not everyone will think like that, and that it is their right and you are not in any way morally superior to them.

Also, age-ing up characters a few years, because a writer wants to explore the character dynamic, but without one of them being in high school, isn't child porn either, by any definition of child porn, since none of the involved characters are of the age where they would be considered children in those works.
But I never see this level of nuance when antis start harass people or try to force their way of thinking onto everyone else.
I also wonder how you know what the writers/readers in question get off to? Are you spying on them in their houses. (But to be serious, it's always strange to me to hear that assumption that everyone gets off to fic, since I don't at all, no matter how old the characters involved are.)
Also, how many popular characters and fandoms with loud anti movements that involve 14yo or younger characters being shipped with much older characters even are there? I doubt that this is the age ranges that even come up that often in anti discourse. I have yet to think of a fandom where people ship an 8 year old with an adult. Those are not the pairings anti-antis defend on regular basis and not the fandoms where I want antis to go away. But, on principle, I would defend anyone writing and reading anything, unless someone has proof that that writer/reader endorses those things happening IRL.
Fiction is not reality and not endorsement of reality, but real actions matter, except antis don't harass/complain about anyone based on proof, because they don't have any, and research doesn't generate likes and reblogs/retweets.

Also, tags are always sufficient warning, and chose not to warn is a warning in itself on AO3. Antis whom other people want to shut up don't just object to not being warned, they tend to go into dedicated pairing tags and call people disgusting unprompted. They also tend to message writers/artists telling them that they will report them to child services, if they find out that that writer has children. They also tend to comment on fanfic about pairings they find disgusting, even when everything is perfectly tagged and the anti shouldn't even have read the fic, unless they wanted to harass the writer specifically.

Antis don't want to co-exist, they want to chase off people with different opinions that disagree with their doctrines or opinions on morals. This is one of those things where I think antis are like alt-right, because alt-right are that group that can't tolerate people with different views and wants them gone/exterminated/locked up etc.

I am more than happy to deal with people who judge me from their own corner, since I don't need to interact with them. I only object to them coming into my corner, disrupting any nice existing fandom atmosphere, and chasing away people I actually enjoy having in my corners.

I also don't care if people say that "x character is a fucking monster who should be strapped to a rocket and fired into the sun", I just want them to stop harrassing (i.e. seeking out deliberately in specific spaces) people who enjoy this character and implying that they must endorse the actions of this character IRL, if they don't want to 'strap them to a rocket and fire them into the sun'. And Antis are allowed to say that, but the fans are allowed to tell them to fuck off, block them and shun them from then on. Hating a fictional villain doesn't make anyone morally superior or special, and if you specifically seek out spaces with people who like that villain, they're allowed to respond to you in kind.

But, I have yet to see any case of antis who are not loud assholes to people about clearly warned content in spaces that allow said content. The problem with antis is that they go out of their way to be in those spaces and complain about content those spaces were made for.
Until fandom moved to LJ I have never interacted with antis, because I stuck to moderated communities made for content I enjoy. The fact that they strive in spaces without boundaries and moderation should tell you everything as to why people want them gone.

[(Anonymous)]

+1,000. Thank you. Jfc, thus thread is giving me hives.

[(Anonymous)]

From my prospective, the issue is that you have to protect both to protect the one. Because the line between "this person is clearly working out trauma" and "this person is just getting off on it" is incredibly subjective. And someone else might just be exploring a dart theme as a writing exercise. Who's the person making the determination about what category it belongs in? How do we know the difference? How do we verify the author is a victim without demanding they show the receipts of their trauma? And how do we definite what is "messed up" and what's okay? Who makes that decision? Who applies it?


As for the fic you mentioned above, I would ask: was it clearly tagged to reflect the kind of content it contained? Because I wouldn't touch that fic with a ten-foot pole myself, but I also wouldn't go into the comments to complain about it because ... well, it was tagged as such. But if the author didn't tag it that way? Yeah, no, they need to acknowledge what they're writing and tag it appropriately, especially if it's troubling topics. It's a two-way street.

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly, some of the people on this comm's stance to anything involving children really concerns me. The line for fictional depravity should be drawn when it lands into fiction about fucking children. Toddlercon especially is just inexcusable and alarming regardless of context. Maybe it's because I'm an old fogie and no longer a dumb teenager who used to think shotacon is A-okay, but if I found out someone I know is writing fanfic of 20 year old Dean Winchester fucking his 9 year old brother, I would be wary of that person. There is no reason to make smutfic (I don't mean nuanced fic, I mean just straight up PWP designed for people to get their rocks off) about that subject matter unless you're fostering some weird sensibilities.

[(Anonymous)]

I started writing fic in my teens. The biggest problem with your line in the sand is that you would have to research the writer's bio to know if they were themselves underage, writing an AU that made them happy. You don't know which character the author identifies with: are they a teen IDing with Loki, fantasizing about an older man? Or are they an adult IDing with Tony and imagining having sex with a 12-year-old?

When the Stranger Things fandom got a bit crazy for sexualizing the underage characters (and the Harry Potter fandom before that), I couldn't help but think that readers had no idea how old the authors of those fics were.

[(Anonymous)]

You know what, I support banning actual pedophilia and actual pedophilic material from social media sites.

But antis have repeatedly shit the bed calling out "pedophilia" on things that are not necessarily even pedophilia adjacent. Like age-ambiguous ships, offhand staff comments on storyboard art, consensual adult age-play, adult age gaps, discussion of teen sexuality and relationships at any level, century-old "daddy" slang, and just having an AO3 account is enough to draw a harassment dogpile in these times.

And it's the same patterns of harassment that we see with other harassment from "discourse" blogs, so it's pretty fucking clear that it's not about the "pedophilia."