[ SECRET POST #4620 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4620 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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04.
("Follies")


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05.


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06. [SPOILERS for Avengers Endgame]



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07. [SPOILERS for Stranger Things season 3]



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08. [WARNING for discussion of rape, underage]




















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #661.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

inb4 a mass of comments ITT supporting peoples rights to write fiction about 4-10 year olds getting fucked by adults and that there's literally wrong/indicative of something sinister in doing it.

If you don't even wince or bat an eye over fic of toddlers having sex, there's something very wrong with you or you're edgy as shit.

[(Anonymous)]

People have the right to write fiction about 4-10 year olds getting fucked by adults and that there's literally wrong/indicative of something sinister in doing it. There, done. Wanna stop stirring the shit pot yet or have you figured out how that X button works?

I'm saying this as someone that is flat-out horrified at the thought of that kind of fic. I just don't care that it exists or that people write it. It has nothing to do with me.

[(Anonymous)]

I just don't care that it exists or that people write it. It has nothing to do with me.

What the fuck does this even mean? I'm not rounding up a fucking crusade hunt against people who write this stuff, all I'm saying is there's something wrong with people who, when they come across this shit, shrug their shoulders or engage with it favorably or defend people who write it. Sparing a "wow, that's seriously fucked, this writer probably has issues and I'm going to avoid them" thought is not hard, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

No, you're not rounding up a crusade, you're ~calling out~ a bunch of people here who rightfully defend someone's right to write whatever the fuck they want, no matter how fucked up it is. What you were looking for was not an agreement that the stuff on the SPN kink meme is seriously fucked, because it is. No one ever said otherwise! It is 100% fucked up! You are welcome to avoid it! In fact I would encourage it!

What you were looking for was to sneer derisively at people that understand that moralizing about fiction doesn't change the fact that it's there, and we don't have the right to tell anyone to stop. It's not illegal. They are, objectively, not doing anything wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, if it's not illegal, then it's totally okay! brb going to Japan to have sex with a 13 year old because, hey, it's legal there, and everyone knows legality is what defines what's morally right or wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

All right cool so you've jumped off the deep end here, so I'm done with this conversation. I can't believe how often I have to remind people that fiction isn't reality.

[(Anonymous)]

Cling to that reasoning like a vice whenever you come across adult men who blog about how much they looooove lolitas or adults writing numerous porn fics about children getting fucked by adults rather than think any deeper about it, I guess.

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt

Fiction and fantasy interact with reality. Such a fix could be predictive of deviant behavior when coupled with a plethora of other factors, but not by itself. This has been investigated at length by a plethora of criminological and psychological research and there is no definitive answer to it. Reality is just not that simple.

[(Anonymous)]

I guess that means you should just shut your brain off and assume literally everyone who engages, seeks out, draws, or writes porn about children are free from judgment or should be allowed to do what they do without further scrutiny or critical thought.

You can keep screaming about how everyone has the right to do whatever they want in fiction, but the line should be drawn when it involves children. There is no justifiable reason for there to be PWP or doujins about kids getting fucked, you could just as easily make everything feature adult characters. The fact that they're specifically choosing to fetishize children is cause for concern. If I found out my neighbor or friend was writing or collecting porn about children, I would probably cut ties with that person because there's just no excusable reason for someone to be into that shit and raises major red flags. And don't hide behind the "it's legal!!" BS, shotacon and lolicon is illegal in my country. Laws are all relative.

Frankly, I don't see why people like you defend this subject in the first place. You say it disgusts you, yet you're devil's advocating far too hard here for someone who apparently isn't invested in the topic. Banning or calling out people who dabble in fictional CP is not going to hurt your other kinks that don't involve children, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

It's always funny how you constantly fall back on the whole " evil pedophilic men" yet ignore that the vast majority writing in the Supernatural fandom are female.

[(Anonymous)]

The men refers more to lovers of the lolicon genre, which is almost entirely made up of adult males. "Adults writing fiction" is largely female. I'm not falling back on anything or making this a gendered issue. Nice attempt at nitpicking though.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

First, what a tired joke argument; the age of consent isn't even 13 in Japan because every prefecture has its own laws about it. Second, have you ever heard of Romeo and Juliet laws (the reason for Japan's meaningless nationwide age of consent at 13)?

Third, stop being obtuse. No one in this thread has defended extreme underage as morally upright in any way, shape, or form. The other anon has said multiple times that they find it horrifying and fucked up and that's still somehow not good enough for you.

So what would be?

You have to acknowledge that defending the right write fiction will mean defending fiction that you, personally, find morally objectionable. That's just the way this works. That doesn't mean the defense of fiction is morally bankrupt, because when people lose the ability to express themselves freely, it never stops at just "the things I find morally objectionable" or "the fucked up shit".

And this isn't even a slippery slope argument. Even if we very strictly limited the creation of fiction that involved children in sexual scenarios with adults, people would lose the ability to write stories based on their own lives and experiences. Even if we say it's just about fiction that "romanticizes" or "glorifies" it, who decides that? Two people can read the same story and come away with very different interpretations.

So yeah, extreme underage is fucked up and turns my stomach. I would like it to stay as far away from me as possible. I will still defend people's right to write it, because I shouldn't have the power to decide what people get to write. You shouldn't either.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't necessarily think that it should be illegal.

I do think it's morally wrong for people to do it in a way that's fetishistic, and I think people should use their best judgment in considering whether or not they ought to do it, and I personally have no interest in ever interacting on a social level with someone who does do it, because I think that it's a morally repulsive thing to do.

[(Anonymous)]

Great, we're in agreement then. Still not sure what your goal is here.

If you don't think that the fiction needs to be banned, what's the point in posting an incendiary comment about people defending the right to create such fiction?

Defending someone's right to do something =/= signing off on it morally.

[(Anonymous)]

That's a different anon, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

Third, stop being obtuse. No one in this thread has defended extreme underage as morally upright in any way, shape, or form. The other anon has said multiple times that they find it horrifying and fucked up and that's still somehow not good enough for you

Because it smacks as being dishonest when they go this far to defend its existence in the first place. And for what? What does anon lose if fictional CP is no longer allowed? If they supposedly don't care for it, then why are they (and you) trying THIS hard to defend it? Normally when I don't care for something, I don't spend hours of precious time devil's advocating for it.

So what would be?

Not defending its existence and then bringing up legality as though that means shit.

Even if we very strictly limited the creation of fiction that involved children in sexual scenarios with adults, people would lose the ability to write stories based on their own lives and experiences. Even if we say it's just about fiction that "romanticizes" or "glorifies" it, who decides that? Two people can read the same story and come away with very different interpretations.

Pretty sure there is no grey area when it comes to just straight up PWP about 5 year old Sam Winchester getting fucked by his brother. There is a huge difference between touching briefly on dark subject matter in order to develop a character or explain a character's motives and going on a porn kink meme, writing porn about a child character getting graphically raped or fucked by an adult for the purpose of titillation, and then receiving comments like "this is so hot, write moar plox".

Speaking as someone who has no issue with porn featuring fucked up shit as long as it pertains to adults (because at the end of the day, when you remove all the fucked up shit, it's still basically someone jerking it to an adult character they're attracted to and there's nothing wrong with that), I see no reason to be defending fictional CP this vehemently. Most of society in general agrees that fucked shit happening to adults in fiction is fair game and wouldn't suddenly ban, idk, BDSM or rape kink if fictional CP was banned. Do you think if CP got banned that your other kinks would be compromised? Is that why you're going this hard in defending it?

[(Anonymous)]

For god's sake, I can't tell if you're still being purposefully obtuse or if you just have the reading comprehension of a rock.

Not defending its existence and then bringing up legality as though that means shit.

There are a lot of different vectors of "not being allowed to do something". Actual, literal government intervention is the most extreme version of this. For the sake of this discussion, I haven't been concerned with what the government decides is acceptable, and I wasn't the anon who first brought up legality.

What I am a lot more concerned with is when people collectively decide to bully others for producing content they don't like. What I get particularly up in arms about is people who send death and rape threats to people who've produced content they don't like.

Fic with kids in sexual situations is morally repugnant, but as long as it's strictly fictional, no one in real life harmed by that shit. As long as everything's properly tagged and warned, anyone who would be harmed by consuming the content can avoid it.

Using moralistic arguments to bludgeon people inherently harms real life people. And worse, people flock to fucking new age bullies and tell them they're doing the world a service. Not exactly what I'd call morally upright behavior.

So yeah, thanks for the not-so-subtle implication that I'm somehow a pedophile because I think people should be left alone even if they're writing morally objectionable shit. Really proved my point there.

[(Anonymous)]

Because it smacks as being dishonest when they go this far to defend its existence in the first place. And for what? What does anon lose if fictional CP is no longer allowed? If they supposedly don't care for it, then why are they (and you) trying THIS hard to defend it? Normally when I don't care for something, I don't spend hours of precious time devil's advocating for it.

Because at some point, somewhere, someone will decide that m/m or f/f fiction is disgusting and should be banned?

Or I just happen to think that whoever gets their rocks off by either writing or reading stuff like that, should have a right to get their rocks off in a way that has nothing to do with real people? Those come to my mind the first...

[(Anonymous)]

What you were looking for was to sneer derisively at people that understand that moralizing about fiction doesn't change the fact that it's there, and we don't have the right to tell anyone to stop. It's not illegal. They are, objectively, not doing anything wrong.

It seems to me that, if you believe that something is morally wrong, it follows that you think that people who engage in that activity are doing something wrong, and you do have a right (within reasonable limits of politeness and so forth) of expressing your opinion that it is morally wrong and they should stop. I'm not really sure what remains of morality as a concept if you eliminate those two ideas.

Now, I guess it's a different story if the question is whether we can force people to stop. Or if we can use legal, political means to enforce our moral views. But telling people that they are doing something wrong and should stop doing it is not at all the same as forcing them to stop. Similarly, it's true that believing that something is wrong does not necessarily make that belief objectively true. But it's possible to have moral beliefs that you take seriously and act on without necessarily believing that those beliefs are objective facts about the world.

That's how it seems to me, anyway. I'm just really confused about this idea you have of morality.

[(Anonymous)]

As far as this site is concerned, you have the right to write or consume morally horrific subject matter, but god forbid you have the right to criticize or condemn it. "Freedom of speech is only okay if it works in my favor" and all that.

[(Anonymous)]

This works the other way around too though. "I want all things I find morally objectionable banned and everyone who reads/write it is an evil morally bankrupt person. What? You don't like my opinion? FREE SPEECH!". But they still want free speech suspended when it's about topics they don't like.

[(Anonymous)]

We're talking about F!S specifically though. The reverse happens here far more often.

"I think fiction of kids getting raped is messed up"

"SHUT THE FUCK UP IT'S FICTION WE'RE ALLOWED TO WRITE WHATEVER WE WANT!! FREEDOM OF SPEECH!! SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!!"

[(Anonymous)]

+100000

[(Anonymous)]

You're not rounding up a crusade hunt you're just judging me and everyone else for not judging and shunning writers of fictional things without any evidence of them supporting anything they write IRL

And this may not be a crusade, but to be honest, I don't trust you and the likes of you to not support a crusade hunt against those people or at least stand by and do nothing when someone else decides to crusade hunt them.

Fiction is not reality, and until you have any proof that any of those people do anything wrong in real life, you can fuck off with your moral outrage and judgement of people who refuse to follow you there.

[(Anonymous)]

I will support people writing whatever they want without seeing anything wrong with it, unless there are other signs in their behavior towards real people in real life. But for that I need to know those people personally, and not only what fan fiction they publish online.
Otoh, I am judging you for pretending that you're somehow morally superior to people who refuse to pass judgement on other people without any kind of evidence.
People like you remind me too much of conservative christian groups (fanatics) to care for your opinion, but I am more than happy to occasionally call out your bullshit, since it deserves a call out more than any fan fiction on that anon meme.