fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #658 ]

[ SECRET POST #658 ]

⌈ Secret Post #658 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

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103.

[Looking For Group]

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104.

[Johnny the Homicidal Maniac]

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105.

[Fanfiction; Voldemort Kaulitz]

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106.

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107.

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108.

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109.

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110.

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111.

[The Penguin of Death]

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112.

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113.

[Fullmetal Alchemist]

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114.

[Death Note, Mello]

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115.

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116.

[MCA, KH II]

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117.

[Gurren Lagann]

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118.

[Fringe]

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119.

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120.

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121.

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123.

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125.

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126.

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127.

[Psychonauts]

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128.

[Avatar]

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129. [broken]

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130.

[Ashes to Ashes, Shaz Granger]

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131.

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132.

[Code Geass, C.C.]

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133.

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134.

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135.

[Whitest Kids U' Know]

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136.

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137.

[Nabari no Ou]

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138.

[Kamen Rider Kiva]

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139.

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140.

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141.

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142.

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144.

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[BoA]

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147.

[QI, Jeremy Clarkson, Sean Lock]

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148.

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149.

[Resized]

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150.

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151.

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152.

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153.

[Star Trek]

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154.

[Fast and the Furious]

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155.

[I suggest Kamina]

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156.

[Code Geass]

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157.

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158.

[Ken Russell's The Devils, Father Barre]

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159.

[Supernatural]

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160.

[Avatar]

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161.

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162.

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163.

[Stephen Colbert/Kathleen Parker]

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164.

[Death Note]

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165.

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166.

Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/com (com link to get more buildings!)

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #094.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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As a relationship, Nia/Simon is pretty piss poor, let me just get that out of the way. I don't like the couple, didn't find it moving on a personal level, and outright guffawed when it turned out Simon's "deepest inner desire" didn't even have Nia anywhere near it. (I don't ship Simon with anyone else, that just struck me as amusing considering the circumstances) Their actual romantic interaction is limited to a few scenes, and we never get a concrete sense of what the one means to the other, aside from the fact that they are in Love.

However, the entirety of Gurren Lagann tends to use emotional shorthand like this, as you know. The characters are more important as embodiment of themes and ideals than as actual characters, with notable exceptions being Rossiu and Kamina.

In that respect, there is one interesting, unique thing about Simon/Nia, and that is his refusal to override her choice to die at the end of the series. Nia, as someone who had been used her entire life, including by the narrative in regards to Simon, got the ability as last to choose her own destiny, and Simon loved her enough to let her go.

That's pretty much it.

That's because episode 26 wasn't about their "deepest inner desires", probably. It was about them recognizing the infinite possibilities of this Universe, it was about them losing themselves in consciousness.

And we indeed get a perfectly clear sense of what Simon and Nia mean to each other. Simon finds purpose in Nia. He is just a digger, without much direction. Nia gives him something to fight for. Nia finds validation, she finds something to make concrete her ethereal and senseless existence.

As for the second paragraph, Simon and Nia have plenty of actual characterization. Just because it wasn't delivered in concrete exposition it doesn't mean it isn't there. They use visuals and actions to make a point, you know.

That's because episode 26 wasn't about their "deepest inner desires", probably. It was about them recognizing the infinite possibilities of this Universe, it was about them losing themselves in consciousness.

No, it was about what they really wanted. Simon wanted a Kamina that would never get killed and leave him alone, even if it meant that "Kamina" was a craven coward, but it wasn't what he needed. Gurren Lagann being all about "choice", the point of those sequences was to give people the things they thought would make them happy, and then have them make the choice to put that aside and do the right thing.

And we indeed get a perfectly clear sense of what Simon and Nia mean to each other. Simon finds purpose in Nia. He is just a digger, without much direction. Nia gives him something to fight for. Nia finds validation, she finds something to make concrete her ethereal and senseless existence.

Validation of what? I can buy what Simon gets out of a relationship with Nia, but every justification I've ever seen of what Nia gets out of it very vague, probably because the series chose not to focus on her as a character for a very large chunk, and tended to use her as a plot device instead.

As for the second paragraph, Simon and Nia have plenty of actual characterization. Just because it wasn't delivered in concrete exposition it doesn't mean it isn't there. They use visuals and actions to make a point, you know.

If I wasn't including "visuals and actions", I don't think I'd be able to count Nia and Simon as a couple at all. Simon and Nia looking off in the distance together makes a lovely "picture", but it doesn't tie them to the viewer on concrete level.

Response to first paragraph: Except the writer have come out to say that the sequence in episode 26 was about possibilities. It's about how you can lose yourself through recognition. Simon took life by his own hands, he decided to be himself. That's why it was an alternative universe and not a simple dream sequence. Gurren-Lagann is a show about "act or not to act". Characters aren't given a choice, characters are given an opportunity. They are who they are, in their hands is only the decision to fight or to run away.

2nd paragraph: To validate her own existence. Nia was infatuated by the love he imprinted into the Kamina statues; she thought they were the definition of "human". Simon made Nia able to accept herself as herself. The show focused enough on her character, with expressions and body language that say plenty about her thought-processes and feelings.

3rd paragraph: And "visuals" include the expressions of the cast members. Nia's look of pain when confronting Genome in episode 15, her melancholic look in episode 17, the way in which she reacts to Lord Genome in episode 27... it's the animated equivalent of "acting". Cartoon characters talk too much, Gurren-Lagann tries to not fall prey of this mistake.

They are who they are, in their hands is only the decision to fight or to run away.

How is this not "choice"?

Simon made Nia able to accept herself as herself.

Where were we shown her conflict with "accepting herself"?

And "visuals" include the expressions of the cast members.

Which...negates nothing I said. If I can't connect to the reason Nia is frowning or looks melancholy, then it's just a nuanced picture.

In episode 11, maybe. She decides to believe in Simon in order to validate her own existence. She calls herself a worthless doll, but she declares that even as a worthless doll she can still believe in Simon just like Simon believes in Kamina. Because that's what makes their lives worth living, that's what will make her a human. After Simon saves her, Nia breaks crying because her status as a person was proven. Even as a worthless doll, she still has something to fight for.

And visuals are the means to tell the story. You don't need exposition to understand the characters. You must read between lines. Shameless introspection is the reason anime is becoming so lazy nowadays.

Episode 11 is a good point.

And visuals are the means to tell the story. You don't need exposition to understand the characters. You must read between lines.

Sigh.

Anime is anime for a reason. Anime uses visuals to tell the story, dialog is just a secondary necessity. Body language, visual design and the overall composition of a scene is the key to good characterization.

Re: The rage is strong with me today

musouka-manga.livejournal.com - 2008-10-24 23:27 (UTC) - Expand

Validation of what? I can buy what Simon gets out of a relationship with Nia, but every justification I've ever seen of what Nia gets out of it very vague, probably because the series chose not to focus on her as a character for a very large chunk, and tended to use her as a plot device instead.

I'd suggest rewatching episode 11, as it's a good character development episode for Nia as well as Simon and sets up the basic points of their relationship. When Nia is told that she was created as a doll, she learns that her father, the one person who she loved and trusted, never meant for her to be her own person. But because of the things she learned while around the humans, she stands up to Guame anyway and decides to believe in Simon. Then minutes later, Simon shows up to save her, validating her belief, and tells her that no matter her past, she should live as herself. So when her father failed her and her statis as a person was put to question, Simon gave her something to believe in and valued her as an individual. Those same themes are also repeated in the second half of the story.

Yes, Simon accepting Nia's right to be her own person and therefore make her own decisions is the keystone of their relationship, and I've never said otherwise. But all of this is on "meta" level, which doesn't really have much to do with the ins and outs of a "romance". Simon and Nia could have meant the same thing to one another without romance ever coming into play, so it's not that I have an issue with the way their relationship was expressed in the series--but as a romance between two people, it lacks because there is no real sense of union.

That's because Nia was the only living individual Simon was comfortable with. Simon is not a very social individual, he prefers solitude and the simple things in life to glory or partying or being president of the world. Nia appreciated his more gentle-side, valuing Simon beyond this grand hero and protector everyone else admired him for. She enjoyed to watch him craft statues, she loved his flaws and public awkwardness.

That's because Nia was the only living individual Simon was comfortable with.

...okay!

There's a reason he liked to be alone thought the show. He was never with everyone else on the jokes(episode 12), he liked to watch the clouds by himself(episode 13), he liked to be in his office by himself rather than to go partying or hanging out with the rest of gang and after Nia died he decided to leave Kamina City because even if they were his dear friends he never felt any desire to be close to them.

I guess the pairing just doesn't fit your tastes then, because I saw plenty that indicated a romance just in the 2nd arc. :/ They had chemistry, they were happy together, there was mutual blushing, signs of affection, etc. And the scene of them in the cockpit at the end of episode 15 showed that they would probably continue to grow closer in the future.

"chemistry"

Keyword. Chemistry is something 100% subjective. Chemistry is the key to romance. Chemistry is something that can't be measured objectively.

I think the problem I have with it, in the end, is that GL is ultimately too carefully constructed for me to buy the romances as romances. I mean, I saw visual cues, like you did. It's not like I was flummoxed that they ended up engaged, it's just...well, it was basically about the "idea of love" and less about love as it happens between two people, messiness and awkwardness that comes as part and parcel.

Nia and Simon were always slightly too compatible, slightly too "SOULMATE HAS APPEARED" for me to be invested in them. It came across as plastic to me.

OP of 117

(Anonymous) - 2008-10-24 23:42 (UTC) - Expand

Re: OP of 117

musouka-manga.livejournal.com - 2008-10-24 23:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: OP of 117

(Anonymous) - 2008-10-24 23:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: OP of 117

musouka-manga.livejournal.com - 2008-10-24 23:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: OP of 117

csakuras.livejournal.com - 2008-10-24 23:55 (UTC) - Expand

Re: OP of 117

musouka-manga.livejournal.com - 2008-10-25 00:03 (UTC) - Expand

it turned out Simon's "deepest inner desire" didn't even have Nia anywhere near it.

She doesn't appear in it herself, but a lot of things symbolizing their connection appear in the dream. Like the engagement ring, the fact that Simon is where he and Nia first met when he starts to realize that something is wrong, and how he escapes from the dreamworld by opening her box (and light illuminates the dark just like when they met). All of that was intentional by the way, according to an interview with the director & assistant director.

And in the first half of the episode, Simon being reminded that Nia was still waiting for him is what made him determined again to keep going after learning the truth about the Spiral Nemesis, so who knows, maybe it was an intentional move by the Anti-Spirals not to have her appear personally.

I noticed the box symbolism myself, and furthermore, let's also keep in mind that his vision was ultimately a distraction. My issue is that by making Nia into a "symbol", you remove her importance as a character, a person that could potentially share Simon's life as opposed to some nebulous light that "shows him the way".

Yes, it was a distraction, and that's why I think Nia didn't appear in it personally, but "true" things still showed up like the reminders of Nia and the Kamina who lives inside Simon.

And it was only symbolism for Nia's significant role in Simon's life, just as the real Kamina came to "show him the way." Her individuality and importance as a character is given plenty of light in episode 27.

Let me lay it out here.

Simon, as a character, accepts Nia as a person, which gives her the right to be individual and make choices. This is why she dies in the end, because it's not his choice to make and imposing his will on her in invalidating Nia as an individual.

But, more often, Nia is used as a narrative device. Even Kamina, the real Kamina, is allowed to show up as a person to have impact on Simon's choice. During the last half of the show, she was nearly taken out of play entirely. She was important at the end, but ultimately, her effect on Simon tends to be less "two people reaching out to one another" and more "you taught me how to be human, I give you something to focus on".

Nothing is wrong with that as individual journeys, but I reject it as the nature of love. I don't mean they had to lose themselves, but for something to be the "greatest love story ever told in animation", I'm going to need something more between the two. To me, a single moment of Eureka and Renton doing the dishes together had more love than anything else in the entirety of Gurren Lagann.

Simon and Nia watching together the new world, they talking happily on the phone about everyday unimportant stuff, Nia watching Simon quietly work on his Kamina statues, they enjoying their quiet company without the need to say a single word... that's what I consider romantic.

And that wasn't the real Kamina. That was the Kamina living in Simon's heart. It was the idealization of his beliefs. They couldn't feature Nia in the sequence since she wasn't dead.

Regardless, reading this conversation I see you finally used the words "to me". Perhaps we can finally agree to disagree instead of saying that our opinion is the only correct opinion in the world and that everyone else is wrong.

Simon and Nia watching together the new world, they talking happily on the phone about everyday unimportant stuff, Nia watching Simon quietly work on his Kamina statues

Yeah, those were the "few scenes" I was talking about in my initial post. Very romantic, but they still felt pretty hollow to me.

Perhaps we can finally agree to disagree instead of saying that our opinion is the only correct opinion in the world and that everyone else is wrong.

I didn't think I needed to add a disclaimer to everything I wrote to make it clear that it was my opinion. Or that I advocated reprogramming Nia/Simon fans to the "right" way of thinking.

I will agree that Nia wasn't given much screentime in the second half of the show, which I found disappointing. But all the emphasis given to her character in the last episode made me forgive that a little.

To me, a single moment of Eureka and Renton doing the dishes together had more love than anything else in the entirety of Gurren Lagann.

Eureka Seven had 50 episodes. Gurren Lagann had 26 (not counting the recap which wasn't originally planned), and crammed two epic storylines into that length of time. I'm surprised they even had time to show Simon & Nia having fun at the beach together or Simon enjoying Nia's food. As it is, they still managed to get the themes across and give many people enough to love about the pairing.

Nothing is wrong with loving the pairing. GL was also originally supposed to have 50 episodes, but Gainax decided to do less. I think GL was pretty much perfectly put together, but I don't have much emotional pull towards it because it's so plot based. In that respect, I think every romance "suffered".

Re: The rage is strong with me today

csakuras.livejournal.com - 2008-10-24 23:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: The rage is strong with me today

musouka-manga.livejournal.com - 2008-10-25 00:07 (UTC) - Expand

I will agree that Nia wasn't given much screentime in the second half of the show, which I found disappointing. But all the emphasis given to her character in the last episode made me forgive that a little.

I really, really hope they deliver with the Simon/Nia story in the second movie. I mean, they gave Yoko the first because she had little screen-time in the second arc... right?

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