[ SECRET POST #4684 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4684 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 45 secrets from Secret Submission Post #671.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[sparklywalls]

I keep expecting that no matter what it's going to end with Kylo dead if they do the redemption thing. Because nobody can be bothered to do redemption any other way it seems.

Not that I feel Kylo Ren is anywhere near a redemption journey seeing as he's rejected that in both films already.

[(Anonymous)]

I think Kylo as a sort of Macbeth figure, a guy who chooses to double (triple, quadruple) down on his own tyranny would be very interesting if written well. Unfortunately the current trilogy has featured middling writing.

[sparklywalls]

Even as a not particularly Kylo fan I would usually be all over something like that. As you suggest though, I've not seen anything that gives me confidence it could be done in a satisfying way.

[(Anonymous)]

Then he's right on the Zuko trajectory.

[(Anonymous)]

Minus the mass murder and the killing of his father to take over the Fire Nation to double down on its genocide and colonization policies.

God I hate Zuko/Kylo comparisons.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, it's a Y7 show vs. PG-13 movies, so their level of evil is obviously going to be different. But by the end of the second act, both characters had rejected two opportunities to join the good guys despite being torn on what they should do and then doubled down on being bad.

[(Anonymous)]

The level of evil here is actually really important to the rejections, though. Zuko betrayed Iroh, sure, but he didn't LITERALLY stab him in the chest, for instance. And his turning away involved him going home to his family, which is at least a sympathetic reason.

[(Anonymous)]

Han Solo is my favorite Star Wars character, so the fact that he forgave Kylo Ren right before his own death holds a lot of weight to me.

Zuko wanted love from his family that he knew, deep down, he was never going to receive. Kylo Ren wanted to be in control after a life devoid of it (which he immediately and publicly undermined dealing with Luke). I think both reasons are sympathetic.

[(Anonymous)]

One of the main reasons that Zuko's story is sympathetic and Kylo's is not is that Kylo's a grown-ass man in his thirties who acts fifteen and Zuko's a 16-year-old who's been forced to grow up early. A child making mistakes based on what they've been raised to believe and then learning that they can be better is sympathetic. An adult using "control issues" as an excuse for mass murder and fascism is just pathetic.

Also, lots of parents love their kids. I wouldn't read too much into Han being one of them.

[(Anonymous)]

...you know he was stabbed in the chest right AFTER the forgiveness, right? Like. Right back to the drawing board on that one.

[(Anonymous)]

No, I'm talking about Han touching Kylo's face. That moment of forgiveness.

[(Anonymous)]

Zuko wanted love from his family that he knew, deep down, he was never going to receive. Kylo Ren wanted to be in control after a life devoid of it

Kylo had a life devoid of love? Since when?? What exactly do people think of Han and Leia??

Honestly, it amazes me how willing Ren fans are willing to throw two of the most beloved and iconic characters of all time under the bus for the sake of Kylo freaking Ren.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

Okay, I realize you may be referring to Kylo's life being devoid of CONTROL, which - okay. But it still doesn't even come close to justifying what he's done, and is still staggering less sympathetic than Zuko's backstory.

[(Anonymous)]

THANK YOU. Every time I see shit about poor miserable Kylo Ren whose parents didn’t understand him I cringe, and I’m not even a big Han fan. The writing of the prequel trilogy mostly sucked, but at least “grew up a slave and was taken away from his mom who died because he was too far away to help her” Anakin had an excuse to be fucked up. What he did wasn’t justified, but at least it kind of made sense. Kylo could’ve channeled his pointless angst into being lead singer of a punk band or something and instead was like “I’m gonna be a genocidal maniac!”

[(Anonymous)]

Two opportunities? For Kylo, sure - he was offered the olive branch by Han and Rey, but I only recall Zuko getting one via Katara, which he rejected because Azula got in his head.

And I guess it's different for everyone, but regardless of what the rating of the film/show is, there is a MASSIVE difference for me between a story asking me to root for the redemption of a teenage boy with his own sense of honour and integrity, raised in a toxic environment after the tragic loss of his mother, who has to fight and work for his redemption, and a thirty-six year old man with loving parents who has been complicit in the murders of literally millions of people, who will probably be handed forgiveness and redemption on a silver platter because we've only got one movie left to wrap this up.

If nothing else, one is a good story, and the other isn't.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

[(Anonymous)]

Zuko at the beginning of Season 2 was captured by Azula who was going to imprison him. He escaped with Uncle Iron and they start new lives with unencumbered identities. Zuko can't bring himself to accept his situation completely, which leads to him reclaiming his royal status at the end of the season.

Kylo’s 29, his parents/Luke loved him but admitted to making mistakes that drove him to the dark side, and he didn't want to blow up the Hosnian system, but what are facts anyways.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not that no one can be bothered to do redemption any other way, it's that when you have villains who are patricides and child-murderers who are complicit in the destruction of entire planets, redemption isn't believable any other way.

Either he dies to redeem himself, or he dies because one good act doesn't actually get him out of facing justice for the many, many war crimes he's guilty of.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

[sparklywalls]

I do see your point because I would rather redemption be done properly than rushed over and done just because "plot reasons!" but realistically no 2 hour film seems to be able to put the work in for what would be a very, very complex and lengthy process which wouldn't end with all forgiven.

Again I'm not even a Kylo Ren fan but if they're putting him in parallel to Vader I just feel like a change of heart is what they're angling at. But they're sucking at it. Perhaps it is a symptom of the format but tbh I am so jaded in Star Wars terms I feel like any attempt to do anything elaborate along those lines would be decried as terrible. I mean, this is the sequel trilogy that had the potential for loads of interesting threads to be explored and they were either neutered, ignored or generally didn't live up to them.

[(Anonymous)]

Except that by the end of The Last Jedi, he wasn't in parallel to Vader, but the Emperor. He's taken over the First Order and is calling all the shots. Rian Johnson set it all up so that Kylo would be the Big Bad for the final movie.

So what does JJ do? Bring back the Emperor. Oof.

(Which is to say I don't disagree with you. If redemption is on the table, there's no way they're going to do it justice unless they simply repeat RotJ: he saves someone - presumably Rey - from the Emperor and then promptly dies so he doesn't have to face actual justice for all the suffering and misery he's caused.

[philstar22]

I wish they'd do it the other way where he is redeemed but has to live with the consequences of what he's done and spend the rest of his life atoning. I don't want a complete rehash of Return of the Jedi, and with JJ back in the helm, I'm scared that's what we are going to get. ROTJ is my favorite SW movie (well, that and Rogue One), but I don't want another copy like TFA was. Please do something new JJ.

[sparklywalls]

Omg I would LOVE for something for once to make a character actually face up to what they have done. When I complain about redemption = death I always expect push back from people thinking I mean the character should be excused. Not at all. I really really want to see someone realise what they've done and the horror that implies/involves. But a 2-3 hour film isn't enough apparently and we get left with short cuts, mostly including one flimsy moment of clarity that inevitably leads to death.

I love ROTJ (and Rogue One too btw) and don't want another rehash but that's what I'm preparing myself for.