[ SECRET POST #4716 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4716 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.



__________________________________________________



02.


__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.



__________________________________________________



07.












Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 14 secrets from Secret Submission Post #675.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I could get into Kristen/Ben...Ben's definitely my favorite character.

I don't get Kristen/David AT ALL, though. I just find David so...meh. He's one of those boring "hot guys" that everyone else seems to love that I just really don't get the appeal of.

Not getting into the other issues I have with the character (and to a degree, the show overall) because people are so weird about religion, but...yeah.

[(Anonymous)]

Ah, yay, I was hoping I wasn't completely alone on this one :p. I adore Ben. He's great. I liked Aasif Mandvi on "The Daily Show", so it's fun to see him on here :).

I like David, myself, but yeah, you make a fair point that a lot of people seem to focus on his looks more than anything else at the moment, and that a lot of the whole thing of the attraction seems to be centered mostly around that part of things, and it comes off rather superficial right now. I prefer the quieter moments we've seen between Kristen and David thus far, where they're having conversations about their respective beliefs, or lack thereof. That's where I can really see some potential between them, or at the very least, I can see a nice friendship developing.

I think, if they can continue to develop that aspect of the characters and their interaction, and we can see how they challenge each other, in a good way, that could help build on the whole "they're attracted to each other" thing and make it stronger. At least, it would for me, I dunno about anyone else.

Having said that, though, one of the reasons I like the whole idea of Ben/Kristen is that they already are on the same page with a lot of their worldviews about all that religious stuff. I feel like they seem to get each other on that level, and in general.

But yeah. There be my thoughts. I would personally love to hear your thoughts on those other issues if you did decide to share them at any point :).

[(Anonymous)]

It is! He was also in this movie called Today's Special that, at least at one point, was on Netflix. He quits his chef job at a fancy restaurant to help run his family's diner when his dad gets sick and meets a single mom and even though I'm generally not a romantic comedy type of person, it was a really cute movie.

Yeah, that's a good point that a lot of it's superficial, at least at the moment. I feel like we don't really know much about him, and to me it comes across like he basically has no personality. Not to mention the whole ~naughty hot priest~ thing is just cringey to me. And another thing I realized is that I'm constantly seeing comments on like entertainment/TV blogs and interviews with writers and stuff about how much chemistry they have, and I don't personally see it, so it comes across to me as more of a telling than showing type of thing if that makes sense. Of course, I've seen plenty of comments from just random people/fans saying similar things, so obviously it's not just people involved with the show that feel that way. But for me, it's like, sure, they're both attractive people but it takes more than that (at least for me) to feel like there's any sort of chemistry between two characters. Obviously this kind of thing is super subjective, though.

With Ben, though, I feel like we have a much stronger idea of who he is and what his personality is, so I find him way more interesting. Like, when David was high at his dad's commune and got a call and his phone showed "God" and he kind of freaked out a little, I immediately knew that it was Ben and that he'd changed his name in David's phone to mess with him because that's totally the kind of thing he'd do. (I know they explained that later in the episode, which I didn't think was necessary because I thought it was super obvious, but I guess maybe not to everyone.) Basically, I feel like Ben's already a well-developed character, much more so than David, which is weird to me since David's the main male character.

And yeah, I'm totally with you in that a big part of the appeal of Kristen and Ben is that they seem to have more in common/are on the same page as far as the religion stuff, and just in general seem to work well together. I definitely prefer to ship characters who are similar, though, the whole "opposites attract" trope usually isn't my thing. I know a lot of people are into that, though, so again, obviously it's subjective.

As for the religion aspect...I didn't want to start drama but I guess I'll say it anyway.

To be completely honest, aside from the whole finding him boring and lacking a personality, my other big issue with David is the priest thing. I was raised Catholic, and I have a problem with the fact that they've decided to have the main character and supposed "good guy" be a part of an organization that covered up child abuse for decades. I know there was a throwaway line about how he was becoming a priest because the church needed more good ones or something like that, but to me it came across as "we know we're probably going to get criticism for this aspect so we need to say something about it" but it wasn't good enough for me. It's like making the main character that we're supposed to root for a part of ICE or something.

Honestly, I wasn't sure I wanted to stick with the show even after the first several episodes. At one point early on it kind of seemed like maybe they were going to go in a "humans are the true evil" sort of direction, but then they got more overtly religious/supernatural (with things that they couldn't find an explanation for like the "angel" in the hospital video, Michael Emerson's character being an actual demon and the fire surrounding the bed when he had sex with Kristen's mom and his weird hold over her, the possible ghost little girl at the Halloween sleepover, the ghost/demon (?) girl in the video game, the woman who 'talked to god' with the drawings and the Armageddon prophecies, David's dad's wife giving birth to a demon baby in a cornfield [I thought that was clearly something Kristen hallucinated from the drugs but I've seen multiple people online think it was supposed to be real so I don't know], etc). I mean, they haven't explicity said all those things definitely are true/real/actually the way they appear so maybe the show will surprise me, maybe it's possible there are explanations for them, and the fact that the 'evil symbol' turned out to be a slaveowner's crest does make it seem like maybe my original theory about humans being the real evil could be right (or it could end up being supernatural after all and turn out that demons were responsible for slavery or something, which I personally feel like would be a cop out, but that's just me).

I feel like it's supposed to be ambiguous about whether what's happening is real or not (maybe there's an explanation for what's going on, maybe not...maybe all the religious/supernatural stuff is real!), or at least that's how the show was originally marketed, but at this point I see it as a fantasy show because clearly all that stuff isn't real in the real world. I'm sticking with it for now because I am looking at it that way, but I wish a show like this would just come out and say "no, this stuff isn't real; even if we can't immediately find an explanation it doesn't mean there isn't one" instead of trying to have it both ways and say certain things have an explanation but with others, "*shrug* who knows, anything's possible, just gotta be ~open minded~" and insist on showing both sides. Like, I think it would be refreshing if they just showed that David's side was flat out wrong and maybe he has good intentions wanting to be part of the church but that doesn't mean it's right, but that would never happen because there are too many religious people who would get pissed. (And I know, I'm a horrible, evil person for being anti-religion, but whatever.)

So yeah. This is super long and I had no idea I had so many thoughts on this show...I'll stop now!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Catching up now and woo, nice to see a good, lengthy post :D! I tend to agree with a lot of what you've said here, especially about the way they're handling the whole Catholic thing in relation to all the deeply disturbing real world issues surrounding that religion. I like the idea of David trying to balance out all the evil that that religion has wrought, but yeah, I agree that it would be good to see the show REALLY tackle those issues more in depth, and give them the proper callout and challenge they deserve. Maybe with time they will go into that further, though, who knows.

I'm not a religious person, either (and in my case, I was raised Protestant, so whatever I know of the Catholic faith is just what I've heard from those who are and the stuff in the news and whatnot). I too would be perfectly fine with having a definitive, fact-based conclusion on so much of the crazy stuff that's happened thus far on the show. Most, if not all, of that stuff can easily have a real world explanation to it, and real world evil would definitely be much scarier for the team to tackle than stuff that has some sort of supernatural explanation behind it.

That said, I'm also cool with the ambiguity on a purely fictional level, because I do love a good, creepy ghost story and things of that sort, so I'm fine with the occasional unexplained/mysterious cases that linger and haunt the team, pun intended :p. But yeah, I do think there's plenty of ways to keep even the weirder stuff grounded in reality, so if they can find a good way to strike that balance, then yay. Ultimately, I'm here 'cause I like the cast/characters, so I'm in no matter what route they take, but I totally get your take on everything as well. I appreciate you going more into depth on all of that :).

Regarding the other stuff about David and Ben as characters...

Not to mention the whole ~naughty hot priest~ thing is just cringey to me. And another thing I realized is that I'm constantly seeing comments on like entertainment/TV blogs and interviews with writers and stuff about how much chemistry they have, and I don't personally see it, so it comes across to me as more of a telling than showing type of thing if that makes sense.

"Telling instead of showing", well put. Even if one does think there is something there, it does feel sometimes like it's being a bit rushed. Course, given how short these seasons are, and considering that when the show first started they weren't sure yet whether they'd be renewed, I imagine that might've played a factor in some of that. Maybe now they know they've got another season ahead of them, they can pull back a bit and just let things continue to develop more naturally and smoothly between them, whether they stay platonic or not.

Fair point about the "naughty hot priest" cliche, too. It's certainly a well-worn, popular trope for a reason, of course, but yes, between him training to be a priest and her being married and the major differences in their respective beliefs, it does seem like a lot of obstacles for them to deal with. And if he does end up becoming a priest, then where do they go from there? Done right it could get interesting, but yeah, I can also easily see where it'd get all messy, too.

I definitely prefer to ship characters who are similar, though, the whole "opposites attract" trope usually isn't my thing. I know a lot of people are into that, though, so again, obviously it's subjective.

I like that, too. I don't mind some minor differences in personality and whatnot, because I do think some balance can be good-the whole yin/yang thing, and all that. But yeah, when it comes to the big issues and beliefs, I like it when the characters I ship are on the same page on that stuff. Some couples can handle those significant differences, some can't, and I don't know yet whether Kristen and David could reconcile their beliefs and make it work in a relationship.

I love your explanation for Ben's development as a character, too :). And of course, there's also the fact that he's good with her kids and looks out for them, and I like the way they've helped each other with some stuff related to their cases, and they have a fun, gentle teasing sort of banter about them, so...yeah. Lots of good stuff to work with and play with there :D.

And thanks for the mention of that Today's Special movie! It does sound quite cute indeed, I'll have to check it out, then :).

And now I shall end my own rambling post, LOL. Thanks again for the thoughtful, detailed discussion!

[(Anonymous)]

Not sure if you're still around, but just in case...

Yeah, it would be really interesting if they could tackle those issues more in depth, and if they focused more on the real world/human evils and used the religious backdrop as an allegory. I don't think that's something we've seen in a mainstream show, at least that I can recall (there's obviously been things like that in SFF books and stuff over the years). Maybe they will do some of that in S2, who knows!

I feel like the way they're doing it is just kind of tired, honestly. I mean, of the shows like this where there's some question of whether the supernatural is real, the answers have been "yep, definitely" and "we can't say either way" but I've never once seen a show answer that question with a definitive "no". Like I said, on a certain level I get why they don't, because there are a lot of people that are religious and would be offended by that, but I just find it frustrating that religion is held up as this untouchable thing that no one can dare to criticize (or, if they do criticize it, come to any conclusion other than that it's ultimately good). I feel like there have been so many "smug atheist proven wrong by the religious character" type storylines (Bones is the first to come to mind, but I know I've seen it on others) but can't think of one where an atheist character was actually right and the religious person was shown to be wrong. IDK, the double standard just bothers me.

Yeah, when I view it as a fictional fantasy show then I'm fine with it. I also love ghost stories and creepy stuff, and I love plenty of things where the supernatural has been established to definitely exist, but I'm okay with it in those cases because the shows aren't claiming to be set in the real world.

The episode with the angel or whatever it was supposed to be in the video, there was a scientific explanation of why the girl actually "came back to light", and when it turned out that the hospital spent less time trying to revive non-white patients, I didn't expect that and thought it could be really interesting if there was maybe more social commentary like that (I know that's considered "politics" to some people, though, and they don't like it). I think that was the episode that gave me the "human evil" thought, and with the slavery thing recently...maybe there is more to things that it seems right now. I didn't watch The Good Wife (though I did like Brain Dead) but I've heard how great it is so maybe I'm just not putting enough faith in the writers and they do have a plan, because if it ends up just being another generic "demons are trying to bring about Armageddon" show I'll be disappointed.

I do like the characters, though, and will continue watching for now even if I sometimes complain about it lol.

That's a good point, that it's rushed. I might be less annoyed by it (although I don't think I'll ever end up shipping Kristen/David unless he gets way more development but even then...what about Ben? lol) if it didn't seem so over the top and was more organic.

I've wondered the same thing. I don't really see an end point that makes sense and I have no idea what they're going for. Like you said, he's a priest and she's married and they disagree on some pretty big issues. If he becomes a priest, then what? The only way it goes anywhere is if he leaves the church (and she gets divorced, but I feel like that's less of an obstacle because from what little we do know about David, his religion seems to be a huge part of who he is) and the only way I see that happening is if something big happens. For some reason my mind keeps going to a big twist in the season finale involving some kind of corruption/conspiracy/wrongdoing by the church (that maybe incorporates some of the various plot points from throughout the season that don't make complete sense? I just thought of Michael Emerson's character advocating for child rape and even though for some reason I didn't even think about it before now, now that I am thinking about it, it almost seems too obvious and too big of a coincidence, but what exactly it would mean, I don't know). Anyway, I know that seems incredibly unlikely, but for whatever reason that idea popped into my head.

As for Ben, though, I can easily see her and her husband deciding they've grown apart or whatever and getting divorced and she eventually ends up in a relationship with Ben. There's no insane obstacles or any real drama so it might be considered too boring by some people, but I think it'd make more sense (at least as things stand right now) than her getting together with David. It's funny, I actually had mentioned her kids liking him in my other comment but then deleted it for some reason. I felt like that was kind of an interesting thing to include, though, with the kids going on about how cool Ben was and their dad seeming almost jealous. I don't entirely see the point of that whole thing unless there's an intention to actually go somewhere with it (unless it's supposed to be a red herring, where he's worried about Ben but really should be worried about David, but that just doesn't make any sense to me and seems like a weird thing to include when they were somewhat short on time as far as fitting everything in) plus I feel like the whole "look how good he/she is with his/her kids!" is a fairly common way of showing that those two characters should be/will eventually be together.

You're welcome! Someone in today's post (#4718) mentioned he has a podcast, so I need to check that out.

Thank you! Before the other day I didn't realize I have as many thoughts about this show as I do and it's been interesting to talk about it!

[(Anonymous)]

Still here, yeah :)! Just popped back in to see if you'd replied, actually.

I very much sympathize with your frustration about the stereotypical "smug atheist being proven wrong" thing-I haven't seen "Bones", but I've read the discussions among fans of that show on here who complained about that. That is one thing I do appreciate about Ben and Kristen on here thus far-they're very strong in their feelings about God and religion, but they don't fit into that stereotype. Their reasons for thinking the way they do are treated as valid and understandable. I hope that continues to be the case, because I do like that their convictions are just as strong as David's. And I too hope they get just as many wins as David/the religious people do, if not more

I do think the fact that they have been willing to tackle serious real life issues like racism, slavery, and, in recent episodes, the whole incel/"angry white men being violent" mindset head on does give me some hope that they'll be just as tough on the religious aspect of things, too. I haven't seen any of the Kings' other work (heard of their other stuff, certainly, just somehow missed out on seeing it), but from what I've heard about them, they don't seem the type to be fragile with religion, nor do they seem to be as concerned about offending people. So maybe this show will be that much needed exception, if that's the case.

from what little we do know about David, his religion seems to be a huge part of who he is) and the only way I see that happening is if something big happens. For some reason my mind keeps going to a big twist in the season finale involving some kind of corruption/conspiracy/wrongdoing by the church (that maybe incorporates some of the various plot points from throughout the season that don't make complete sense?

I'm honestly wondering about that, too! If this show does wind up actually seriously confronting a lot of religion's hypocrisy and abuse and whatnot head on, and it leads to a major transformation for David in terms of his direction in life, that could be a really interesting angle and development for his character. They have been slowly building to some crisis of faith for him, so I agree that as the season winds down that's likely going to come to a head in a really significant way.
And Leland's definitely got to play some kind of role in it somewhere, for sure. I read a comment on some other site a while back that pointed out that they seem to keep referencing babies on this show-there was the weird thing with Ben's sister and a possible baby, the talk of miscarriages when Kristen was talking to that woman who claimed to be possessed, the reference to the "slaughter of the innocents", that bizarre stuff with that demon baby, etc., so between that and the occasional comments that have been made about the sex abuse scandal in the church, I think you might be on to something with that being a large part of whatever goes down as the season wraps up.

But at the same time, that would change the whole premise of the show to some degree, too, and I think they do like having that fact versus religion balance there, which would indicate David's staying where he is in that regard. So yeah. It's tough to say, for sure.

As for Ben, though, I can easily see her and her husband deciding they've grown apart or whatever and getting divorced and she eventually ends up in a relationship with Ben.

Okay, it's funny you say this, because I'm actually working on a fic where this happens. So far it's just a one-shot, but now I'm kind of considering maybe expanding on that setup a little more. If that's a boring premise, then I guess that makes me boring :p. I think it sounds rather fun to explore :D.

And YES to your comment about all the little moments they've put in alluding to him coming around a lot and spending time with her family, and her husband seeming a little jealous about the whole thing, normally being a sign of something more going on there. If they ever did want to go there, I certainly wouldn't complain :D. In the meantime, at least all that stuff gives me plenty of good fic fodder, so yay for that.

That was actually me who mentioned that podcast! I hope you enjoy it if/when you get the chance to give it a listen, it's pretty fun.

And LOL, same. It's really nice to be able to talk a little more about this ship in particular, because I've yet to run across anyone else who likes it (they may well be out there and I just haven't yet talked to them), so it's fun to get my feelings about them out like this.

[(Anonymous)]

That is one thing I do appreciate about Ben and Kristen on here thus far-they're very strong in their feelings about God and religion, but they don't fit into that stereotype.

Me too! The character on Bones was just really unlikeable overall, so I didn't love the way they potrayed atheism on that show, but here it's much better. They definitely seem to be handling their views in a respectful way (and I just love Ben in general, he's just a super cool character to me).

I actually hadn't seen the most recent episode when I wrote my last comment, and after seeing that episode, I do think there's going to be more focus on real life issues. I mean, the whole incel/shooting thing came across (at least to me) as Leland (even though I know the character's name, I can't help but think of him as Michael Emerson for some reason, lol) just having a personal vendetta against David rather than a demon thing. Although I did see some comments pointing out that he had one of David's dad's paintings in his office, which I hadn't noticed, and which I find interesting, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean, if anything (it could just be a little Easter egg type thing for fans to notice).

I haven't seen any of the Kings' other work (heard of their other stuff, certainly, just somehow missed out on seeing it), but from what I've heard about them, they don't seem the type to be fragile with religion, nor do they seem to be as concerned about offending people.

Like I said, I haven't seen The Good Wife, but yeah, Brain Dead definitely showed this. They definitely don't seem to be afraid of offending people. I guess I'm just cynical/used to being annoyed when shows with potential go off the rails, but I probably should trust that they know what they're doing.

And Leland's definitely got to play some kind of role in it somewhere, for sure. I read a comment on some other site a while back that pointed out that they seem to keep referencing babies on this show-there was the weird thing with Ben's sister and a possible baby, the talk of miscarriages when Kristen was talking to that woman who claimed to be possessed, the reference to the "slaughter of the innocents", that bizarre stuff with that demon baby, etc., so between that and the occasional comments that have been made about the sex abuse scandal in the church, I think you might be on to something with that being a large part of whatever goes down as the season wraps up.

Yeah, I'm thinking that even more after the most recent episode. The comment about Renee helping out the church in the abuse scandal, something about the wording, it seemed almost like sarcasm/satire in a way (it actually reminded me a bit of Brain Dead). I don't know exactly what it was, but it made me think "yeah, this is definitely going somewhere". That's interesting about the babies, I hadn't even thought of that, but it's interesting. I'm really curious to see where things go/how it all fits together.

Okay, it's funny you say this, because I'm actually working on a fic where this happens. So far it's just a one-shot, but now I'm kind of considering maybe expanding on that setup a little more. If that's a boring premise, then I guess that makes me boring :p. I think it sounds rather fun to explore :D.

I personally don't find it boring (most of the romances I like involve close friends who have things in common who end up having feelings for each other and then have quiet, domestic relationships without much drama [or, for pairings I ship, that's how I always imagine things being]), I just know a lot of people like a bunch of obstacles and dramatic events (and that's totally fine, it's just not my thing usually, although there are rare exceptions) and find things like that boring, because I've been called boring for my shipping/romance preferences before lol. Anyway, would you mind linking your fic here when you're finished with it?

That was actually me who mentioned that podcast! I hope you enjoy it if/when you get the chance to give it a listen, it's pretty fun.

Oh, that's funny. I definitely will listen to it at some point!

[(Anonymous)]

Don't know if you'll check back in on this, but just wanted to pop in to first off say that I saw that Today's Special movie the other day (it was on that Tubi site). It was very cute indeed :). I liked it (Samir's mom was a trip and I adored her :D). Thanks again for the recommendation!

Second...Although I did see some comments pointing out that he had one of David's dad's paintings in his office, which I hadn't noticed, and which I find interesting, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean, if anything (it could just be a little Easter egg type thing for fans to notice).

I hadn't noticed that, either, until others pointed it out! That's one thing I'm really liking about this show, it's the sort that rewards multiple viewings. So many little details to discover on rewatch.

And yeah, I like the idea of Leland targeting David, and the others, personally. It was downright chilling the way he tapped into that guy's fucked up worldview, but I love that the show didn't shy away from showing just how easy it is for those mindsets to fester and grow. If that's the kind of calling out they'll do going forward for issues both supernatural and otherwise, bring it on :D. I'm glad that the most recent episode seems to have eased some of your concerns in that regard-here's hoping that continues to be the case.

(Also, your comment about Emerson-it's funny, this is the first thing I've actually seen him in. I've certainly heard OF his other work, of course, and I've seen a couple episodes of "Person of Interest", but for whatever reason, I've missed out on his body of work in general. I'm really enjoying him on this show, though, creepy as his character is, so I clearly need to remedy that at some point.)

Your description of the types of ships you like...that describes mine to a T as well :). If there ever is any drama and obstacles, I much prefer to see my favorite ships dealing with that stuff together. I'll definitely share the link to that fic when it's done-I'm hoping to have it finished and posted fairly soon here, so we'll see how it goes :).