[ SECRET POST #4952 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4952 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 39 secrets from Secret Submission Post #709.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

05. https://i.imgur.com/Y2EnEyR.png

[(Anonymous)]

I don't see how

[(Anonymous)]

I suggest you read Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment, then.

[(Anonymous)]

+100000000

[(Anonymous)]

I liked it because a lot of times having the Polly Oliver addresses some sexism things. But as I got older, I did notice this. My favorite ones are ones either where they don't start having feelings till they know the Polly Oliver's gender, or where they come to accept they might be bi already, with no clues that the Polly Oliver is actually a woman/girl.

I would like to see something where someone who thought they were a woman/girl (even if it's just societal pressure) starts to question or enjoy more their presentation as male. I had a character that started out as a Polly Oliver that I just changed to a transman, and took out a lot of the Polly Oliver -esque plot (though it does not progress like aforementioned. He knew his gender before outwardly changing his presentation).

SA

[(Anonymous)]

Another thing I noticed is that some of the genres that still have this happening a lot (in the case I'm talking about, Japanese manga, webcomics, novels) do tend to have a lot more sexism in the general writing. The girls always are these very petite, waif-like individuals, while I myself have always been stocky, broad, and gain muscle pretty easily. Then there's what you mentioned, the homophobia and transphobia.

Re: SA

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, to be fair, most Japanese women ARE very tiny. I've spent time in Japan and I was taller/bigger than a lot of women there despite being only 5'4" myself.

[sabotabby]

Oh oh oh! Wake of Vultures by Lila Bowen has the sweet Polly Oliver trope but then it turns out that he's trans. There's a sequel that delves into his identity more but I haven't read it yet.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Excellent

[(Anonymous)]

I would like to see something where someone who thought they were a woman/girl (even if it's just societal pressure) starts to question or enjoy more their presentation as male

I can't remember whether or not this actually happens in Monstrous Regiment, or if that's just in fic

(because it's definitely, DEFINITELY a thing in fic)

[(Anonymous)]

It definitely happens to at least one character in Monstrous Regiment (Maladict), though they come off to me as more nonbinary than strictly male, but YMMV.

Jackrum I believe drops a lot of strong suggestion that he's actually a trans man, not a woman in disguise like the others.

[(Anonymous)]

Why did you even bother submitting this? We have a thread to post our secrets so someone will make them pretty, you know?

[(Anonymous)]

Nah, any secret is a good secret, don't shame people for their secrets as long as they're legible

Thank you for making the secret OP

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it too, for those reasons. I prefer when it's clear (or at least the way the audience overwhelmingly reads the character) that the man is just attracted to the person regardless of gender (i.e. the man is bi, and doesn't have a gay panic about his supposedly-male buddy). For example, people often read Shang this way and that makes it bother me less.

[(Anonymous)]

IAWTP

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I'm thinking about why I have mixed feelings (not just annoyance regarding the issues brought up in the secret but also positive feelings) and I think it's because there's a big wish fulfillment aspect to Sweet on Polly Oliver plots from the point of view of the female crossdresser and by extension the female audience who relates to her, which is finding a man who is attracted to you despite the fact that you don't present as female. It eliminates the possibility that his attraction is primarily physical/based on beauty and suggests his attraction is based on something that transcends gender or gender presentation (personality, intelligence, sense of humor, etc.). Whether the guy is straight or bi, the wish fulfillment kicks in if the story makes it clear that he didn't immediately sort the crossdresser into a "female = potential love interest" box, but rather approached her purely professionally/collegially/comradely and got to a romantic place gradually based on the person's personality alone.

[(Anonymous)]

IA. In real life shouldn't someone just fucking acknowledge s/he might be trans or something and be respectful anyway?
Like when a character is shamelessly naturally flirty around everyone they fancy and also flirty around Polly Oliver? That's ok, I can handle it (actually I'm likely to crush on them).

[(Anonymous)]

tbh I always liked HanaKimi's take on it with Nakatsu's falling for Mizuki thinking that she was a boy and his response was to agonize over being gay and then going, fuck it, MIZUKI I LOVE YOU EVEN IF THAT MAKES ME GAY.

They don't wind up together but I always liked that Nakatsu thought about it and went, okay, well... fuck it. I love Mizuki. So I must be gay. And just embraced it.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't really get your problem? Do you not want your Polly Oliver to have admirers, or should the admirers not be physically attracted to her?

I kinda get where you're coming from, and I'm sure there are stories that are aggressively offensive, but your take seems like an uncharitable reading of the trope in general.

[(Anonymous)]

OP said they have a problem with the trope, not with Polly Oliver who they expect to die single in a house full of cats. Maybe you're not used to it but there's definitely some media in which someone the audience themselves can't be sure is a man or a woman is suddenly approached by some white knight who wants to shower her with affection as he does to every woman. Sometimes there is even some shitty talk about how it's in hormones or whatever, like... give it a break.

[(Anonymous)]

Same. I only like this trope when the love interest is in on the scheme or otherwise knows from the beginning.

I wish there were more stories (heck, I can't even think of ONE right now) in which a guy actually falls for a man in disguise and then... stays in love with him.
Or a woman falling in love with another woman disguised as a man with the same result. (I feel like there has been at least one of those, but I can't remember the title)

[(Anonymous)]

Some Like It Hot?

[(Anonymous)]

There is a book called Utsukushii Koto by Narise Konohara which is essentially the former, though it's a bit more problematic than that as the guy struggles before accepting it.

[(Anonymous)]

Allegedly only one of Billy Tipton's five (!) wives ever knew he was AFAB but I honestly find that very hard to believe.

[(Anonymous)]

Y'all should check out Gautier's novel "Mademoiselle de Maupin" if this trope is interesting to you