fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #708 ]

[ SECRET POST #708 ]

⌈ Secret Post #708 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

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[Bleach, Soifon]

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[Twilight]

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[Gaang Jr]

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[CSI]

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[Hellboy]

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[World of Warcraft]

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[Hugo Weaving]

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[DBSK]

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[Keira Knightley]

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[Bleach]

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[sup, MGS genderswap]

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[Farscape]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 20 pages, 498 secrets from Secret Submission Post #102.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

104. You know, I always found TTW a little disturbing, I could just never quite articulate why...

136. *sigh*

...okay, in some ways I'm glad that 99% of Hetalia wank happens outside of the actual fandom, because I'd hate for any of it to seep in. Hetalia fandom is generally sweet and awesome and lovely, I've had such a good reception there, and I've run across some really phenomenal work.

But that being said? There's a difference between including dark elements in fiction and eroticizing or romanticizing said dark themes. I'll agree that a kink meme probably isn't the best place to make such a distinction, but come the fuck on, people, I thought one of the central premises of fandom -- and of writing in general -- is that we don't necessarily condone the actions we depict in fiction. (Lord knows I don't; I've written Hetalia darkfic -- though nothing on the kinkmeme -- but I'm presenting it as wrong and twisted and disturbing, and why the fuck shouldn't I?)

In a nutshell, the issue shouldn't be the content itself, it should be how the content is presented. And competent and mature writers can make the distinction between presenting something and condoning it. Not to say that every writer is necessarily competent and mature, but the ones who are aren't necessarily trivializing history or turning horrific events into fap material. The inclusion of sex in fic doesn't automatically make something fap material, or it shouldn't, because goddamnit, not everything with sex in it is erotica. I feel really strongly about this last point, and I've spent months grappling with it, and I hate the assumption that because I choose to deal with mature themes in a plausible fashion in my work, I'm doing it for the sole purpose of getting myself or my readers off.

I know I sound really cranky and pretentious right now, but fuck it, I am. I'm sick of justifying my work, and I'm sick of being judged for the fandoms I participate in.

And other people's points about the kink meme not being indicative of the fandom as a whole still stand. I mean, hell, I'm probably something of an anomaly within the fandom. Still, why the fuck should the rest of us have to apologize for what some people on the kink meme might like? Kink memes are breeding grounds for weird shit. That doesn't mean the entire fandom is filled with godless perverts.

Edited 2008-12-14 01:00 (UTC)

This

Seconded.

Keep your stuff clear out of the kink meme, and no one will jump to unfair conclusions. Well, they still might, but at least then you would be completely justified in arguing for judgments to be made solely on the merits of the content.

As for those fics on the meme, even if they aren't as bad as they appear, I just can't give the writers a pass for replying to those requests, and those requesters baffle me even more. If they didn't have that sort of intention, they shouldn't have made requests on the kink meme. What are people supposed to think?

As frustrating as the entire situation can be, I do think that there is some burden on Hetalia fandom to separate the wheat from the chaff, and to present ourselves in a way that leaves absolutely no room for misunderstanding. This series does have the potential to be very controversial. Excessive foot-stamping won't keep the naysayers down.

I agree that posting something on a kink meme predisposes a certain type of response from both author and requester, but I've actually read some of the fics the secret-maker referenced, and I didn't read them as erotic. The Nanjing one comes to mind, actually: disturbing as fuck, yes, painful, yes, but the point of it seemed to be the irrevocable damage wrought by Japan's actions, not the zomghawtness of it all. And the former point is, I think, a valid one to make in a fanfic, because it's true. And even as I'm typing this, I know some of the responses to some of the more troubling prompts probably are geared towards kink and sexual gratification of characters and readers -- I skipped the fuck away from anything that looked to be heading in that direction, so I can't name names -- but, well, that's fandom. As much as I wish that people wouldn't tackle mature themes unless they're willing to explore the ramifications and consequences of them...yeah. And again, kink memes tend not to be so much about ramification and consequence (which is what I'm primarily interested in as a writer, anyway). So maybe there needs to be a different place for those kinds of requests, so they aren't read or written as erotica. I don't know; I can't dictate the actions of the people on the meme, but I can hope that they write and request with thought and care.

The series does have the potential to be controversial, yes. I see that, and I understand those who are offended by it. I just get frustrated at the assumption that we're all trivializing history or glossing over the real pain that people have experienced for the sake of cheap thrills. I'm sure there are some people like that, yeah, because that's the way fandom works, but that isn't at all the impression I receive from the majority of the fandom, and it's a shame that the earlier assumption has any prevalence.

My point, though, is that it doesn't really matter what the fics in question are actually like. Once you put it on the kink meme, you can't escape the connotations they will be associated with. So, yeah, if people had stopped to think about what they were about to do, then maybe this whole wank wouldn't have happened. Hetalia fans should just be aware of these dangerous waters, and start avoiding them in the future.

One might think, though, that people are generally so wary of approaching these sensitive issues in fanfic (even when the intention is pure) that it takes the anonymous environment of the meme as well as the goading of a bunch of requesters to make it possible for them to take the leap. And that's just... really unfortunate. There's a lot you can do with the darker aspects of history, even in Hetalia; it shouldn't take something like a kink meme to make it possible.

And ideally, people shouldn't be afraid to address sensitive issues in fiction at all, thus permitting them to request and write whatever they darned well please without fear of undue reprisal.

What a fortunate Internet it would be, if fandom was receptive to and embracing of aggressive and politically charged and provocative fiction, inside and outside the dominant sexual context.

Truth.

Sadly, anonymous is still as close as we can get to absolute freedom on the Internet. Well, hey, someone down below is calling for an non-kink anon-fic-meme for Hetalia-dom. That sounds like something that might work out, if people are willing to be 100% honest in their criticism. (Why shouldn't they be, it's anonymous?)

In the end, it all comes down to how thick-skinned the fanfic writers are.

And even the thickest of the thick-skinned still feels defensive and hurt when her work is misconstrued or trolled, or when she is told that her authorship is being judged for no reason other than its venue and audience.

Precaution is what you have to take when the subject matter is volatile, and therefore the venue does matter. I don't think half as many people would be so bothered if it were just someone writing fanfic about the Rape of Nanjing. It's the thought of someone asked for/wrote porn about it that that made people freak out.

I have to admit, I did a doubletake myself, and even after reading the actual stories, I still don't feel comfortable having them there on the kink meme. Those stories have a place in fandom, they do. Just not there. Their existence on the meme cheapens their very values, in fact. It makes me think both writers and requesters didn't really think it through, didn't stop to consider how things would appear; it's not really about the authorship.

But as we both have stated, fear of the lack of understanding is part of what keeps the fic in the anonymous setting. I appreciate that you would read the fic in a different light if it was presented as an attributed work--on some level, that's why I haven't participated in the meme either, because so much of my work relishes the attribution. But not all authors on the meme are posting anonymously because they are afraid to attribute the work to themselves--it is because they do not want their own name to inform the reader of the potential of the work.

It's just that the kink meme makes the stories sem exploitative, even when they aren't. I would still read them if they were anonymous. Sometimes I find that helps me to form unbiased opinions, especially in smaller fandoms where I probably am familiar with a lot of the fan authors and their works.

Unfortunately, the only kind of anon meme for fanfic appears to be of the kinky variety. Is porn the only thing fandom can agree on anymore?

Re: 136

mithrigil.livejournal.com - 2008-12-14 05:23 (UTC) - Expand

Welcome to the Internet, where you don't get to determine how people react to you or your work.

Intention is everything. You just have to make sure that yours comes across.

Ha, true story, true story. :smiles: Sounds like someone's read my work.

I am,, this very second, writing and researching something for Hetalia that makes my own skin crawl because the story demands to be told. No sex, no, but my ancestors might well rise from the dead and tear me to ribbons for the points of view I am having Ludwig and the man with whom he is conversing express. But it's a story that I believe should be addressed and as long as my intention with it is clear, I oughtn't come under fire, Godwin's law or no.

But so far, and for me, Hetalia fandom has been accepting of use of the characters to address serious issues that the canon itself does not--an ideal place for me, and what I intend.

Yes. What the anon before me said.
Mature fic with sexual content about anthropomorphic countries abusing each other probably can be more than pr0n. And I totally agree with you that 'fictional depictions of sex' can be so much more than a means of arousing the reader, and can be another way to express characterisation and themes. But unfortunately, that's not what kink!memes are for. Requests in kink memes are varied and perhaps the only connection they have is that they are all underpinned by the meme's purpose to centralise and satisfy an anonymous fandom's need for more sexual content. As far as I can see, none of those requests are asking for nuance or insight or historical accuracy (if that can even be achieved) so no one can be surprised that people here are judging them as a tasteless desire to sexualise these historical events to make them 'hot'.

I guess what got me about the secret was that I read it more as a condemnation of Hetalia fans for exploring such issues at all, not just a "what the shit you guys there's a lot more to this stuff than 'omghawt' you know." I might have been misreading things, and if so, I apologize to the OP.

And I might be projecting some of my own writerquirks about fictional depictions of sex onto the authors on the meme. I'd just like to hope that the requesters and authors are in fact fully cognizant of what they're doing. Maybe I'm being naive or overly optimistic, but. I do think there are better venues for this kind of exploration than a kink meme, you're right.

Hmm, well I can't claim to know what the OP was thinking when they made that secret, but I do agree that condemnation of the entire fandom for those specific requests in the kink!meme is unfair. If they're just judging those requests, I would completely understand though.

I'm usually all for the 'THERE'S A BACK BUTTON PEOPLE'/'if you don't like it, don't read it' response. And I often defend a person's right to write something just for the porny factor or the LULZ, but in these particular circumstances, I just think that anyone who would be aware of the history wouldn't ask for those requests in that kind of meme, especially in such a blase/squeeful tone. Maybe that says more about the type of atmosphere anonymous kink memes can generate and how people will get carried away by certain behavioural norms in their little nook of fandom without understanding how it looks to those who don't participate than it does about the actual participants themselves. I honestly don't know if that's better or worse.

Although I did actually just seek out that Nanjing response after an anonymous comment said that the fic it prompted was more psychological than sexual. It did seem like the responding writer was aware of how sensitive the topic is and tried to do justice to it through their writing (whether or not they were successful and whether or not they would be better off exploring that in another venue is something that's up for debate, I think, and you probably know where I stand on that. ;) )

I think you're right, and I think one of the touchy things about Hetalia is that the usual assumption fandom operates under -- that fantasy and reality aren't the same, and that you're not writing about real people or advocating this kind of behavior in real life -- doesn't hold as much water, because these are real events that real people experienced, suffered, and died during, events whose ramifications are still being experienced today. It's sobering. I don't know if everyone on the meme means to sound so squeeful or if that's just sort of accepted kinkmeme talk and they don't realize the ramifications of what they're saying, but you're correct, it's troubling. Really, I think the important thing here is tone more than content: some stuff isn't meant for porning or squeeing purposes. It just isn't. It doesn't mean that the topic itself is taboo (which is what prompted my initial angrypost up there, because I hate being told that content itself is taboo), but it does mean you have to really think about what you're doing, and I can't ignore the fact that not apparently everyone on the kink meme is thinking about it. Or is thinking about it in any meaningful way beyond "hot!" And that's...definitely troubling.

(I should thank you for all your thoughtful responses, though -- you're giving me a lot of good things to think about.)

I should thank you for all your thoughtful responses, though -- you're giving me a lot of good things to think about

Ugh, I really have to leave the house because I'm really late to meet someone, but I just wanted to agree with this and say thank you for not assuming I'm bagging the whole fandom (um, it would be pretty hypocritical if I did since my Hetalia folder is the largest fanart collection I have on this computer...ahahaha >__> ) and taking the time out to respond so thoughtfully as well. It is interesting to think out why people have different standards for this fandom than others and it's more fun talking with someone who's not going to shut you down with a tl;dr so thanks also for not being dismissive. :D

How about an Anon-srs-meme for Hetalia, then? Where all of those ideas are explored in a setting where they can bee well-thought-out and written well, and we can all avoid stepping on anyone's toes about the word 'kink'?

also, I find it funny that my recaptcha was 'and teaches'.

That's not a bad idea at all. I think there might already be something like that on the main comm -- I've heard it mentioned -- but I'm not sure where exactly it's located, and I haven't seen it promoted all that heavily. If it doesn't already exist, though, it might not be a bad thing to create.

(And yeah, that's appropriate.)

Yeah, if it doesn't exist then it really needs to. I don't know about the rest of the fandom, but I'm definitely in Hetalia for the new takes on Historical events and the well thought out, moving fics. Sex comes to mind only where it fits in AFTER those first few things.

I wouldn't want to read it and it would probably still stir up wank, but I think it would be more easily defensible for those interested as fanfic that's not looking to sex up large-scale massacres.

Actually, a couple of the requests specifically ask for historical accuracy. I remember seeing one that was about the war of 1812, and another one was asking for a fic about America and Canada's fighting for the border states.

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[ SECRET POST #708 ]

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