fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5022 ]

[ SECRET POST #5022 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5022 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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04. [WARNING for discussion of incest]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 47 secrets from Secret Submission Post #719.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I... what?

I don't. I seriously don't understand what you're even trying to argue here. I said that pretty much all cases of real-life incest are an ADULT, grooming and preying on A CHILD. Which is very obviously abusive and beyond fucking abhorrent. The adult/adult cases are largely accidents(caused by neither half knowing they're related, which I literally said), and even in situations where they know they're related and boink I'd still argue that some kind of fucked-up power-imbalance was going on either within the pair or from an outside influence normalizing them into a situation that's incredibly damaging for the both of them.

And yes, it is in fact very possible for same-age relatives to abuse and groom another, or even each other, because the whole point is that incest is FUCKED regardless of how it happens.

I agree in the strongest possible terms that any relationship involving grooming and preying on a child is wrong. I condemn it in the strongest possible terms. I don't want any kind of misunderstanding or accusation on this.

What I don't get is why you're saying that this is the case in all examples and that there *must* have been some kind of power imbalance even when the people involved are adults. I don't get why this has to be true across the board. Just because incest doesn't appeal to you or me doesn't mean that it has to be "fucked regardless of how it happens".

And it bugs me to make these kinds of blanket statements without some kind of very strong evidence for them. I don't like it.

Right you're a troll, I don't care, I'm done talking to you.

I don't care that it's a joke, you're 'ironically' trying to argue how abuse isn't abuse. Kindly go fuck yourself.

I didn't say anything justifying abuse, please don't accuse me of justifying abuse, that's a very fucked up thing to accuse someone of

So you don't want to engage with the argument so you go for ad hom. Hmmm

I agree.

As an example, in my late teens I had a friend who was secretly in a relationship with her immediate cousin of the same age. It was troubling, of course. They were each other's first. She had issues. He had issues. Neither of them were in a good place, and I very much doubt the incestuous relationship would've occurred if either of them had been in a good place.

That said, it was not an abusive relationship. Unhealthy, yes, but abusive, no. And as her friend, I responded accordingly. I made sure my friend knew that I was there for her if she needed personal help, and I stayed well out of the rest of it. She's married now and has a kid. He's in a long term relationship as well. Their relationship was what it was, and then eventually they stopped. If her friends had lost their shit when she told us about it, I think it could've been a lot more damaging than it ended up being.

Just noting that not every culture views relationships between first cousins as incestuous. (And regardless of how you feel about them, I think they're pretty clearly in a different class to a relationship between siblings).

Edited 2020-10-06 10:30 (UTC)

Had the relationship been between her and a brother of a very close age, I would have been more disturbed, but I wouldn't have done anything differently. Presuming she was very clear on the fact that the relationship was mutually desired, I would have responded the same way.

I'm not sure what other people ITT think they would do in such a situation. Go to the police? Go to the parents? Disown their friend? None of those things strike me as remotely helpful. More likely they would all be damaging.

Had the relationship been between her and a brother of a very close age

But it wasn't. Ask yourself why it almost never is in real life. You are basing your entire argument on a hypothetical scenario, which doesn't reflect the reality of 99% of real life incestous relationships between siblings. What do you want us to say? "Sure, if your hypothetical scenario ever happened in real life (and it almost never does), then it would be ok?" "Sure, because a hypothetcial scenario like that is conceivable, it means that incest as a concept should not have negative connotations (despite the fact that in 99% of actual real life cases it turns out negative)?". I'm genuinely confused what are you trying to accomplish with this argument.

.... so you agree that when it's not in real life incest can be ok? like say, in fiction? perhaps fan fiction of some kind even?

This is not a discussion about incest in fiction. Yes, incest in fiction is pretty hot and lots of people, myself included, enjoy it. This has no bearing on the morality of incestous relationships in real life, which is the topic of this thread.

But the fact that Western culture views them as incestuous makes them pretty clearly relevant to this conversation. If you're talking about incestuous relationships, especially in a Western context, that includes first cousin relationships.

"Western culture" meaning which one? Even in the US only roughly half of the states outlaw it.

But you still can't simply operate on the assumption that incest doesn't ever include cousin relationships, because that's not universally the way the way the word is used

But if you're going to have hours long arguments with people, it's good to pick a topic that you actually disagree about instead of building a strawman and beating it all day and night. Most people here are not opposed to cousin relationships, the disagreement is over the morality of sibling and parent/child relationships.

If you say that all incestuous relationships are categorically wrong and abusive, then someone responding by talking about cousin relationships is raising a valid objection. They shouldn't be expected to know that you didn't mean what you said. If you want to be specific about sibling relationships, be specific.

And that's what I disagree with overall - the absolute blanket statements. I agree that most incestuous relationships IRL are bad. I think where we draw that line matters and I think it also has an impact on how we treat fictional incest.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2020-10-06 21:31 (UTC) - Expand

Perfectly legal in much of Europe, too.

NAYRT

Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I think the AYRT is a troll, and I think they're the same troll who posted the comment at the beginning of the thread. It's just a hunch, but they both use asterisks to emphasize words, which is common but Idk man, I just feel they're both characters written by the same person. #1 is dopey yaoi fan char and #2 is pseudo-activist type char.

Not trolling, different anon, sorry

Noted, and I'm done with them.

Except it's inaccurate

i'm the anon who started the thread. i'm not a fucking troll.

I agree with that anon, and I'm not a troll. AYRT is also, quite obviously not a troll. Their determination to speak rationally about difficult subjects actually speaks to a degree if level-headed sincerity that you yourself don't appear capable of bringing to this conversation.

There's a lot of people in this thread who can't seem to deal with rational arguments.

Yeah, and those are not the people you're thinking of.

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