[ SECRET POST #5082 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5082 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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13. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]





















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #727.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

11. https://i.imgur.com/zhht3jB.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

I feel like they're much less common than they used to be, at least.

[ibbity]

Thank heaven for small favors, lol. So obnoxious

[(Anonymous)]

Xander as a character has not aged well in the slightest.

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair, neither did the guy he was based on.

[(Anonymous)]

??? Who was he based on??

[(Anonymous)]

Joss Whedon

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god. Please don't tell me Xander was Joss Whedon's self-insert. That's unbelievably fucking gross given Xander's constant lusting after Buffy, and makes him even more of a shitheel than I thought he was.

[(Anonymous)]

I think there's a degree to which some of Xander's character flaws were deliberate and were intended as low-key commentary about how guys can be dicks to women because of their own fragile egos. But I don't think he was held nearly accountable enough for his bullshit. I think the narrative was much more tolerant of it than it should've been. Like, Xander's shittiness was regarded as a character flaw, but I don't think it was regarded as the kind of character flaw he needed to change if he wanted to deserve the friendship of women.

[(Anonymous)]

The moment where I soured on Xander forever was in the end of s2 where he doesn't tell Buffy that they're trying to get Angel's soul back (I believe that's how it plays out, I didn't look it up and I could be misremembering). Just felt like such an awful selfish betrayal that the show never really made right.

I did like him with Anya but that's mostly because Anya is just cute as a button.

[philstar22]

Yup, same with me. And then, he had the audacity to be mad at Buffy for going to fight Anya in season 7, a complete and utter double standard. Because Anya was a girl, and Angel was a man, so it was completely different somehow, even though at the time of each incident they were both a villain and a danger who needed to be stopped. And Buffy was actually going after Angel and had no problem with that, unlike Xander, she just dared to have mixed feelings about the man she used to love and still did.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT - Yeah, that was really, really shitty, and in that case it just feels weird that it was never properly addressed. I feels like it was very much meant to come up later, and then just never did. Which is weird, because if there's one thing Buffy was pretty decent at, it was continuity (for a 90s show, it was A+ at continuity).

[(Anonymous)]

I agree. And, in light of the comments above, that I think it was a case of a JW aiming for 'look how cool and in favor of equality I am', but falling far short and actually just revealing how much of a dick he is instead, with absolutely no self-awareness.

Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

Completely agree with your Xander-related aggravations, but who else would you nominate as other examples of the same character archetype? I'm starting to think that I don't watch enough "badass female heroine" shows because all I can think of is maybe Winn from Supergirl (which I didn't see much of).

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

I honestly do feel like the selfish Nice Guy is a very common trope, but I’m not sure if it’s paired up with female badass characters as much as OP claims it is.


For the most part Logan from Dark Angel wasn’t this kind of dude (despite the actor apparently being sleazy af).

Will from Alias was also not this kind of dude. To my memory, he loved Syd really unconditionally, and never put his hang-ups off on her.

Obviously Ross was 100% this kind of dude, and one could argue that Rachel became kind of “badass,” in her own very sitcomy way. But it’s a bit of a stretch.

Neither Logan nor Piz was really this kind of dude on Veronica Mars, to my recollection. I mean, Logan had issues out the wazoo, and was definitely a “bad boy” boyfriend, but he also…did a surprisingly decent job of mostly not taking shit out on Veronica, and when he did he usually admitted he was wrong and basically was prepared to kick his ego into a trash can for her forgiveness. And given that Piz never really had her heart, and on some level everyone knew he was sloppy seconds, he was honestly a pretty nice, remarkably non-insecure dude. (though I could be misremembering, S3 of VM was not one I rewatched much.)

Dawson was totally this kind of dude, but was Joey “badass”?

Aeryn was badass and Crichton was not this kind of dude, thank god.

Lee got pretty fucked up over Kara, but it was very mutual. They were both just really messed up people, for very understandable reasons.

Oh! Oh! Roger from Outlander. Fuck that guy. I stopped watching because of him. He was The Worst. (It's possible he got better? But I hated him so much I quit watching when I found out he was sticking around.)


All of my examples are two decades old (except Outlander). It’s a problem, lol.

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

The current politically correct fandom consensus is that all female characters are badass unless they're too problematic. All a character has to do to be badass is:

1. Exist.
2. Be female

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

I've given S3 of Veronica Mars a rewatch a couple times and honestly Veronica's relationship with Piz was one of the very few highlights of that season. And even though I'm not a fan of LoVe I do agree that Logan wasn't like Xander. He was a really well fleshed out character. He was protective of Veronica but he also knew she could take care of herself a lot of times.
She's taken care of him and saved him from danger and he never made any comments about how it hurts his ego. The hotel scene in season 1 is probably one of my favorite scenes in the show. Logan finally realizing his mom is gone and Veronica is just holding him even though at that time they had a tense relationship. Also, I think his protectiveness comes from the trauma of losing Lilly and Veronica being her best friend.

dark angel superfan here

[(Anonymous)]

i've been rewatching the series and logan's insecurities come mostly from his disability, not necessarily from being close to a woman who's stronger than he is. there is an episode where he starts having trouble with walking again after his paralysis is temporarily cured due to receiving a blood transfusion from her, as max has stem cells in her blood that cured the spinal damage. at one point he all but accuses her of preferring it when he's confined to a wheelchair and she gets rightfully furious at him for it, so in season one at least he's a decent dude whose issues come mostly from not being able to do what he could before and he and max trying to deny that they have feelings for each other.

(though yes, michael weatherly is a creep and can go fuck himself. i remember thinking his engagement to jessica was so romantic when i was a teenager and then looking back a few years later and going 'she was only four years older than me what the fuck')

Re: dark angel superfan here

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, after I hit post on this I remembered how much conflict there was around his ability/inability to walk. I do think that's a much more understandable situation for a guy to feel kind of impotent and filled with frustration and anger that he wrongly directs at other people, which I guess is why I don't remember it the same way I remember other male character's bad attitudes. Not that being disabled makes you impotent, just that if you're used to having a very able body and then suddenly you don't, I can see how that would be an absolutely massive blow to one's sense of self.

And then there's Max, who is literally the most able person he's ever known--maybe the most able person there is, period. It's not okay for him to lash out at her in insecurity, but it's something I find very understandable nonetheless.

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

Not from a show with the woman as the main character, but the same sort of male archetype in terms of personality, overpotectivess of "their" women which holds the women back or at least tries to, double standards with women vs. themselves, possessiveness with women, would be Ted Mosby and Will Hallstead. I don' know if Mal from Firefly is fully this, but he does act like this with Inara. I think Booth from Bones is kind of an example.

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, as much as I've enjoyed both Firefly and Bones at various times, I can see it to some extent with both Mal and Booth, at least with Inara and Brennan.

Mind you, I still like these characters. I guess I regard these tendencies as unfortunate character flaws that they should work on overcoming (even if the shows themselves don't).

I think I have a harder time watching Xander, although some probably-OOC fanfic has made me much more sympathetic.

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know if you watched Relic Hunter back in the day, and it's been so long that I don't know if Nigel falls into this category. He was Sidney's assistant, and she generally saved him (and the day) and I know he was harboring feelings for her, but I don't remember much aside from he was the cute stammering bookish type.

If he does not fall into this category, I imagine he falls into the competent male assistants to bad ass ladies. To which I would add Modesty Blaze's assistant, whose name I forget. And I honestly don't remember if he falls into the Xander thing either, lol.

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

I've only seen two episodes of the first season of The Boys so far, but Hugh seems to be this type.

I've been thinking that Kripke wants to be the new Whedon, but sorry, Eric, you like men too much, no homo, literally.

Whedon's shtick was that he was all about badass women. Nowadays it's really common, but for its time, Buffy was a big deal. Kripke doesn't have that. He's really all about the cis white males swinging their dicks. Watching The Boys is like mainlining testosterone.

Re: Other examples of the archetype?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it's not like they don't warn us on the wrapper. c: OTOH, Kimiko? Annie? Maeve? are pretty freaking badass. And Hugh admires Annie unabashedly. His insecurity and feelings of inadequacy are all aimed toward Butcher. lol.

[(Anonymous)]

Yup. This.