Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-01-19 05:04 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-01-19 05:04 pm
[ SECRET POST #745 ]
⌈ Secret Post #745 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Trickster Online]
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[Supernatural]
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[Zettai Karen Children]
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[Soul Eater]
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[Storm Hawks]
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[Fullmetal Alchemist - Riza Hawkeye]
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141. Just linked, again. (Warning for... child kissing?)
[Professor Layton]
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[The Dark Tower]
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[Obama. Ozymandias of Watchmen.]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 357 secrets from Secret Submission Post #107.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 (is ironic) 7 8 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ], [ 1 - link to a random site ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
It would be one thing if the protestors were mad about the concept of Hetalia - that boils down to the same "matter of opinion" argument that's been going on here for weeks. But they're mad because *Korea* is a part of that equation - like Korea is somehow special, untouchable, all because it's had a bad history with Japan. Which, I'm sorry, is just self-centered and unreasonable.
And I'm not saying we should wipe slavery out of the history books, I'm saying we should accept it as part of the past and move beyond it already. Constantly bringing it up is just tearing open old wounds and dumping salt in them. Maybe if we all just agreed to leave the past in the past, people would stop justifying their hatred of one another with historical backing and the confederate flag could go back to being a symbol of cultural pride rather than an insult.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 02:35 am (UTC)(link)I don't know (or particularly care) about Hetalia, but this pisses me off more than anything. What you're saying is that we should ignore an important aspect of our nation's history, just because it makes you feel uncomfortable? However, you should be able to wave the fucking Confederate flag around all you want, no matter how much it might offend me.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
If you mean 'ignore' an imporant aspect of our nation's history the same way we 'ignore' the other important aspects of our history that we don't allow to effect our everday lives - like the vast majority of wars we've been in, the Great Depression, and all presidents who aren't George Washington or Abraham Lincoln - then yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Slavery is one of the very few aspects of our history that people still actively use to damn each other, and it's bullshit. All it does is force African-Americans into perpetual victim status and encourage hate groups like the KKK. If we can just ackowledge that it happend and move on, LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN HISTORY, we'd probably all get along better.
Also, there is a huge difference between showing pride for your culture - by displaying a flag - and making . A southerner displaying a Confederate flag is no different than a Mexican imigrant displaying a Mexican flag or an Italian imigrant displaying an Italian flag. It's about pride for the history you came from. Everyone deserves that right, and I'm sick of being told that I don't because certain aspects of that history bothers people like you.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 03:27 am (UTC)(link)So, in your mind slavery is about as important to our nations history as Chester A. Arthur. And if slavery wasn't important, why the hell did you list Abraham Lincoln as one of the two presidents worthy of being remembered? IIRC, slavery is the reason we remember him.
And I don't understand why you get to decide which history events are important. Yes, you think slavery is a historical footnote, but a lot of people disagree. Those people have the exact same right to speak as you do.
All it does is force African-Americans into perpetual victim status
Oh please. Black people are still victims of a racist system. Why should I pretend otherwise?
If we can just ackowledge that it happend and move on, LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN HISTORY, we'd probably all get along better.
What do you mean "EVERYTHING ELSE IN HISTORY"? How many of our secular holidays are in recognition of various historical people or events? How many museums are there dedicated to various stages of human history? And what about all those little road markers I see everywhere, telling me that "So-and-so slept here" or "Soldiers marched through here on their way to the battle of X"? Hell, isn't your main motivation in ignoring slavery to regain pride in your history?
A southerner displaying a Confederate flag is no different than a Mexican imigrant displaying a Mexican flag or an Italian imigrant displaying an Italian flag.
You're wrong. The Confederacy was created because southern landowners wanted to continue to own slaves (yes, yes, there were other issues involved as well, but it all boiled down to slavery). A Confederate flag is a symbol of oppression, a reminder that all these people would have gladly fought to keep my ancestors in chains.
Everyone deserves that right, and I'm sick of being told that I don't because certain aspects of that history bothers people like you.
But don't I have a right to my history? And, unfortunately, my history includes slavery. Personally, I'm sick of being told that I can't talk about it, because it makes some white people uncomfortable. Frankly, if you feel guilty that's your problem.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
In the grand scheme of world history...yeah. Links in a perpetually-ongoing chain.
"And if slavery wasn't important, why the hell did you list Abraham Lincoln as one of the two presidents worthy of being remembered?"
I didn't. That's not what the list was about. He's just the only one that people think of on a regular basis, or that your average five-year-old could name. That's because he's a prominant part of our culture, NOT just because of slavery, but because he was a good man and a good leader whose death greatly impacted our history.
"What do you mean "EVERYTHING ELSE IN HISTORY"?"
How many of those things do you think about in your everyday life? How many of them can you say you ever talk about outside of history class or those museums? How many of those events have ever been used to justify why it's okay for modern race-based street gangs to hate each other? Or by racists, on both sides of the argument, to declare that their opposition is the spawn of the devil?
"Hell, isn't your main motivation in ignoring slavery to regain pride in your history?"
Culture. Not just history, which is an aspect of culture.
"You're wrong. The Confederacy was created because southern landowners wanted to continue to own slaves (yes, yes, there were other issues involved as well, but it all boiled down to slavery)."
See, this is what I'm talking about. NO, it did not boil down to slavery, it boiled down to state's rights. The Civil War hinged on whether a state had the right to a) reject a mandate from the national government that they felt would be harmful to their well-being and b) remove itself from the union when it saw fit. Both of these answers were 'no,' in the end. Slavery was only one factor in the entire mess.
"A Confederate flag is a symbol of oppression, a reminder that all these people would have gladly fought to keep my ancestors in chains."
A Confederate flag has been unfairly labeled as a symbol of oppression by people who think the Civil War "boiled down to slavery" and by its constant misuse by hategroups such as the KKK. It's a symbol of pride in a culture that was almost destroyed during reconstruction, and, to be honest, I think it stands proud for people of all cutlures. I think that African-Americans deserve to be as proud of the South just as much as whites do - after all, if it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be a South at all.
"But don't I have a right to my history?"
As long as it doesn't surpress your neighbor's. There's a big difference between taking pride in the struggles of your ancestors and using it as a justification for censorship or hatred.
I mispoke when I said 'forget slavery.' I didn't mean that we should do away with the history. All I meant was that it should be treated like all of the rest of history, because that's what it is. It's not super-special. Hell, it's not even unique to the American South, or even to America. It is a mistake that will always be in the history books, and should be. But waving it around like a 'get out of jail free card' or a justification for the kind of hatred and (two-way) discrimination that I've seen...it's not right, and it shouldn't be right, and it shouldn't effect our culture as much as it does.
"Frankly, if you feel guilty that's your problem."
Also? I'm sick of being told I should feel guilty when my family never, ever, ever owned slaves. Actally, we originally came over as indentured servents.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 04:46 am (UTC)(link)In the grand scheme of world history, almost everything is insignificant. However, slavery has definitely hugely effected American society, in many different ways. I don't think that it's possible to understand this country unless you understand what slavery was, how it worked, and what the ultimate consequences of it were.
And not just because of its impact on black people (though that's vitally important). But the entire economy of the South was, at one point, more or less dependent upon slave labor. And our country would, culturally speaking, be very different if a bunch of Europeans hadn't gone off and kidnapped a bunch of Africans.
That's because he's a prominant part of our culture, NOT just because of slavery, but because he was a good man and a good leader whose death greatly impacted our history.
If you asked all those five year olds who President Lincoln was, they'd say that he was the man who freed the slaves. He's famous for the Emancipation Proclamation and for presiding over the Civil War (which was about slavery). The fact that he died had nothing to do with it. Several presidents died in office, a few of them were even assassinated. Ever heard of James Garfield? William McKinley?
How many of those events have ever been used to justify why it's okay for modern race-based street gangs to hate each other?
Oh Jesus Christ. So, when you think of black people, the only thing you can think of is street gangs? In your mind black people = evil street gangs. You're truly an awful person.
A Confederate flag has been unfairly labeled as a symbol of oppression by people who think the Civil War "boiled down to slavery"
The Civil War was about slavery. Period. I don't care what your racist, apologist history teachers taught you. Your ancestors fought to enslave mine.
It's a symbol of pride in a culture that was almost destroyed during reconstruction
So history is important, as long as its yours? Why should this symbol of pride matter, since it's just another link in an eternal chain?
As long as it doesn't surpress your neighbor's. There's a big difference between taking pride in the struggles of your ancestors and using it as a justification for censorship or hatred.
Who's asking for censorship? You can babble on about how much you love the South, as far as I'm concerned. But you're saying that I can never, ever discuss slavery because it's unfair to you. You're the one asking for censorship here, not me.
All I meant was that it should be treated like all of the rest of history, because that's what it is. It's not super-special.
Look, how do you think people are treating slavery? Because while I do hear it discussed, it's usually in the same way that history is usually discussed. It's more relevant than some subjects, but that's because it had such a huge impact on American society. I don't see how we're treating slavery as thought it were "super-special".
But waving it around like a 'get out of jail free card' or a justification for the kind of hatred and (two-way) discrimination that I've seen
I have no idea what you're talking about. At least I hope that I don't...
I'm sick of being told I should feel guilty when my family never, ever, ever owned slaves.
Do you want a gold star, or something? Personally, I don't care if you feel guilty. When I'm talking about African American history, I'm talking about the history of African Americans. White people are not always the center of the universe. Maybe the next time you see people talking about slavery, you should listen for a minute before making it all about you.
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Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 03:29 am (UTC)(link)Are you fucking serious, dude? That is not the same at all, not even a little bit. What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that circumstance is everything. If Mexicans had enslaved Americans all while flying their flag, you better fucking believe that that is what people are going to continue to think of when they see it. That's what it represents, whether you like it or not. Something just doesn't stop having extremely negative connotations just because you want it to. You may think it means 'oh hai, this is southern pride' but to everyone else the Confederate flag means something else entirely. So yeah, fly your Confederate flag all you want but don't be surprised when you get shit for it, and don't self-righteously whine about it because you're such a victim, people won't let you put up a Confederate flag in your dorm room, boo hoo. (Careful, your privilege is showing.)
It's about pride for the history you came from.
Yes. The history of SLAVERY. That means ENSLAVING PEOPLE. When people see a Confederate flag, they think of SLAVERY, and rightly so.
Everyone deserves that right, and I'm sick of being told that I don't because certain aspects of that history bothers people like you.
Yes. Certain aspects of history, like SLAVERY, bother "people like me." You know, people who aren't bitter assholes with entitlement issues.
You can say it's just a flag all you want, and it's not what people think it means so you can wave it because you're not trying to be disrespectful, you're just showing pride of where you came from, blah de fucking blah. But symbols change and take on a meaning of their own, whether you like it or think it's fair or not. Take the swastika. Nazis chose to use that as their official emblem, even though it was originally used as a symbol meaning good luck. That's not what it means today, obviously. You can draw that somewhere and claim you mean to say 'good luck' because that's what it was originally meant for your culture. That does not make it ok.
You can't redeem a symbol with good intentions, or just because you 'don't mean it the way people think you mean it.'
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
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(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 02:48 am (UTC)(link)"Moving beyond it" can only be conducted properly after recognizing, evaluating and reflecting on it, in the way it deserves.
Which Japan didn't.
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(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 03:00 am (UTC)(link)Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
Certain political groups in Korea got offended by the content of Hetalia. They petitioned to have it censored, and they succeeded. As far as I'm concerned, it's no different that the groups in America who try to censor things like To Kill a Mockingbird.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
For the record (and I really should have said this from the beginning) -- I am not one of the ones who wanted to see Hetalia canceled and I don't think it should have been. I just think that people are being willfully obtuse when they don't realize WHY Koreans would be offended.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
I just don't think that their offense justifies their censorship efforts.
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 03:35 am (UTC)(link)Think about this for a second.
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Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 10:25 am (UTC)(link)Maybe it would have been noble of them if they cared to accuse of the general offensiveness of the comic first and put their "personal feelings" aside. But in case you forget, it's their country. Of course they are being self-centered; no one will care if they don't make that particular aspect into an issue.
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(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 03:40 am (UTC)(link)Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
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(Anonymous) 2009-01-20 09:19 am (UTC)(link)Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
Re: 103, 116, 118, 129, 131, 138, 154, 161, 166
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