fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5205 ]

[ SECRET POST #5205 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5205 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[When They Cry]

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03.

[Shadow and Bone on Netflix, based on the books by Leigh Bardugo]

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04.

[Word of Honor]

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05.

[I Am Still Alive]

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06.

[Car Talk]

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07.

[A/B/O]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 24 secrets from Secret Submission Post #745.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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What's the line for tagging your fic as DD:DNE?

Is it:
- any dark content at all?
- or only dark content written with no in-story consequences (e.g. two brothers sleep together and everyone's totally cool with it, or rape with no fall out?)

Not a writer, but I've never considered DD fic to be either of those.

For me, DD fic have to include torture, rape, or death. Or all three. And that content is the main focus of the fic.

Thanks! It's a new one on me so i haven't quite worked it out yet.

I always thought it could be pretty much anything that might squick someone - incest, rape, underage, totally consensual scatplay, whatever. You've already also tagged for whatever the squicky thing, so "dead dove do not eat" sends the message that the person already read the tags and decided to click anyway, so any feelings of uncomfyness they might have are totally on them. You, the writer, have already done the responsible thing and tagged. Basically, read at own risk and if they get ooged out, it's their responsibility, not yours.

In the show it comes from, a character finds bag labeled "Dead dove, do not eat," opens it out of curiosity (although he was already told the answer), and finds, lo and behold, a dead dove that should not be eaten. He looks at the camera and says "I don't know what I expected."

If you, the theoretical reader, are grossed out by scatplay, you open a fic tagged scatplay, you read and get grossed out, well, I don't know what you expected.

Same applies to any sort of potentially upsetting or unsettling content. There's no rule about what type of content it is.

DA
I used it on one fic I wrote with this idea in mind. Rape/dubious consent so I added DD to be like, "Seriously, do not read if you don't like dubious consent".

This is what I always thought it was too? Something that contains squicky content and is being upfront about that fact so that people who don't want to see it can avoid it. IME usually the summary tells you right off the bat that this particular fic is going to have some questionable stuff so if you click on it anyway, you know damn well what you're getting into.

DD:DNE is for when your fic contains content (usually dark content) that is not handled in the way you would expect it to be IRL. The majority of the time DD:DNE means "Yo, I'm kinking on fucked up shit in this fic, don't say I didn't warn you." There are non-kink instances where DD:DNE is applicable, too, I guess. Like, "This is dark and fucked up IRL, but I'm treating it like it's fluffy and sweet and loving."

DD:DNE does not denote merely the presence of dark content. It denotes a discrepancy between the RL nature of the content and how the content is treated by the narrative.

The genesis of the term:
https://mostlyvalid.tumblr.com/post/116424790408/a-proposal

100% this.

I finally googled it last night after seeing it mentioned here (never seen it actually in use in my fandoms) and kind of feel like I should tag everything I write with it, considering how many reviews I get that are like "omg you made me cry in public" due to my narrative inclinations.

Actually kinda wish I could tag my entire life with it. -_-

FYI, it's generally not used for things that are just dark, angsty, or tragic. I'd say that if you're not into it a DD:DNE fic is more likely to make you feel sick and generally awful than "omg, I'm crying in public!"

NAYRT, but I've seen the tag on Hurt/No Comfort and Dark!Character fic fairly frequently. I'm guessing it depends heavily on the fandom. If your audience is used to getting The Lion King and you're throwing straight-up Hamlet at them, DD:DNE may be warranted.

Strongly, strongly seconding this. Like, truly, I cannot second it enough and I'd like to shout it from the rooftops. A lot of people misunderstand the tag. If you are using the DD:DNE tag just to denote dark or painful content, you are using it wrong. The people you have seen using it that way were using it wrong.

Parent/child incest and it's horrible? Not DD:DNE.
Parent/child incest that's erotic/romantic/adorable? Yes DD:DNE.
Graphic torture scene? Not DD:DNE.
Torture scene designed to be erotic/arousing? Yes DD:DNE.
Forced feminization as a fucked up thing that is upsetting thing that needs to stop? Not DD:DNE.
Forced Feminization as a kink? Yes DD:DNE.

That... seems to be deeply misunderstanding the whole DD:DNE trope.

Like, the punchline to the original scene is "I don't know what I expected." The dead dove was a dove that was dead. It wasn't a dove that was slowly tortured to death and then left to rot in the sun for a few days before being put into the bag and refrigerated.

The point of the entire thing is that you were told there were bad things here, so don't be surprised when the things are bad. Only using it to describe bad things that are far, far worse than what you would have expected based on being told that the things were bad is not surprising, given the attitudes of fandom, but definitely disappointing.

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 03:41 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 03:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 06:11 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 08:53 (UTC) - Expand

(Anon who posed the question) Okay, that makes a bit more sense.

I was in part thinking of all the kink meme fills I did involving death/rape/mental illness/etc. and later found out the person who requested them had to stop reading my fill because apparently they were more detailed than they were expecting to get, and judging from the reviews after I posted to AO3, other people felt the same way. :P

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 02:35 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 04:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 06:55 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 07:35 (UTC) - Expand

I don't follow your logic at all.

The Tumblr post doesn't have a long list of rules like that. It's much more free-form. All it means is that the author doesn't moralize.

Here's the actual text of the post:

That post doesn't actually say anything like that! All it says is that it has the tags on the post, the tags accurately describe what's in the fic, and the author doesn't moralize about it. There's no long list of rules of what

Here's the full text: Sometimes, in fandom, we just want to write id-tastic fic that rolls around in tropes that might be viewed as problematic. But we don’t want to address the problematic side of things in this particular fanwork; we just want to roll around and wallow.

It is considered courteous to give readers a heads-up via use of AO3 tags. I propose a tag that signals that a given fanwork is for rolling around, not giving a measured evaluation of anything. The MCU has carved out a space for this sort of fic with the “HYDRA Trash Party” tag, for which I commend them. Trash Party is a bit too specific to cover all of the ground I’m thinking of here, though; I propose “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat.”

For those of you not familiar with Arrested Development, Michael Bluth finds a paper bag in the freezer labeled “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat.” He opens the bag, finds a dead dove, and reacts as follows:
image

[gif of a white man saying “I don’t know what I expected” in a deadpan manner]

The “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag would essentially be a “what it says on the tin” metatag, indicating “you see the tropes and concepts tagged here? they are going to appear in this fic. exactly as said. there will not necessarily be any subversion, authorial commentary condemning problematic aspects, or meditation on potential harm. this fic contains dead dove. if you proceed, you should expect to encounter it.”

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-07 04:29 (UTC) - Expand

I would honestly use it in situations where you're going to get very graphic about very awfully things.

I think as long as you tag everything properly (like what you listed, although anon ITT mentioned things not getting the reaction/treatment they would in real-life) it's up to you.

I once read a fic that was tagged DD:DNE and rightfully some they also tagged all the fucked up shit in their story too, so i knew what I was getting into. I did have to stop, because it got too far (physically, mentally/emotionally) and was super graphic and it just wasn't for me. but I wasn't gonna complain, because as the song goes "you knew what it was when you signed up".

On the other hand, I've read a fic that should have been tagged with it, because it left me feeling empty (should have been titled him"How to break this Character 101" and yet it wasn't disturbingly graphic, but the insight into the psyche, the violence against the character certainly did the job!). And yet I've read others with this tag that I felt didn't really need it (maybe a little, but I felt we know what's gonna happen if you use "Stockholm Syndrome" as a tag).

So, just tag thoroughly, and if you really feel strongly about what you've written, then go ahead. There may always be a reader who felt you weren't cautious enough if you didn't tag it DD, and others who will feel you were being overly cautious.

DDDNE = the tags are for real

See those tags? They mean something.

Not sure how it ever came to mean anything else.

Thank you! Some people in this thread have turned this simple concept into something far more complicated than it needs to be.

OP

It seems more complicated than that to me because well that's what days are for in the first place? I was trying to work out at which point a dark fic becomes Dead Dove. I think some of the answers up thread make sense on this point.

Re: Dead dove question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-09 19:05 (UTC) - Expand

I've only used it once for a hurt-no-comfort fic that contained cannibalism and physical/psychological torture.

I've written other dark stuff, but I thought that one was extra fucked up, so I decided it deserved the Dead Dove tag. Like, there's dark and then there's "might actually make people vomit". That's what the tag represents for me.

To me it means the fic will focus on the gorey details. It's an amplification tag. Like sure, you can see there's some dark element warned/tagged for but DD:DNE means we're really going to wallow in it.

Maybe there's a happy ending or justice but the important bit is the suffering or darkness will be really graphic.

it's a response to readers who read your fic which was tagged [tag] and say "wow how could you do [tagged] thing?" there are some fandoms which have certain concepts (or certain examinations of concepts) that have more readers do "i can't believe you wrote the thing you said you were going to write", so its useful in those contexts. it's fandom-specific (though some things cross into wider fandom attitudes).

For instance, in fandoms for media which don't have ANY dark concepts and neither does fic, fic which engages in dark concepts might want to use it.

For fandoms with media which does engage in dark media, but almost certainly has a "happy" ending, and the majority of fic engages in HEA fic, this tag might good if your fic has NO happy ending.

for fandoms in which fic is dark with little ethical use of concepts like "love" and the media supports this reading, fic which uses "love" to mean "fluff and HEA" might want to use the tag.

Based on the comments in this thread, I'm never going to use it, since people have vast disagreements about what it means.

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