fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5230 ]

[ SECRET POST #5230 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5230 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 48 secrets from Secret Submission Post #749.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

(cozy werewolf anon)

if this was bait to drag me out, congrats, it worked?

ok, the secret, one of the many issues with traditional publishing (I'm assuming these are trad pubbed books) is convincing them that anything that's not white, not ablest, and not cis-het will SELL. There are 5 big publishers who own most the imprints. So, technically you're getting 5 chances to publish. And traditional publishing, along with say block buster movies, can be some of the most sanitized, mass market, trend driven, regurgitated pap. And scifi and fantasy circles outside of UF and Paranormal Romance, hit the stick, and hit the stick hard at female and BIPOC authors until they are considered nearly unpublishable b/c they won't sell. They would rather publish a book by a white male author set in fantasy feudal japan than actually publish a book by Japanese author or Japanese american author.

unfortunately for us, this shit sells. And then that same author goes on to write a deeply anti-Semitic book involving the name Jews and Christians don't say and blood libel. Said white male author is also not Jewish.

So the only way to get publishing to change is to... prove to them that non Germanic/Norse/Celtic mythology will sell. Germanic/Norse/Celtic mythology was absorbed by the late Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic church and sanitized to fit white Christianity ((and is thus ok)) versus the outright rejection of Roman and Greek pantheons and by the time they got to Africa/Asia, they didn't absorb other culture religions anymore because it was the Evangelical Protestants!

Ugh, my christian education is showing.

And if the only way to do it is to take tired old tropes and give them a, pardon me, using your metaphor, less common color. Authors will take it as a win because they HOPE in the future publishing will take that next step and the tired fantasy tropes won't be needed and the colorful culture can actually be more important. And it is considered a double win if these books are written by BIPOC or people of that particular culture, like Jewish culture (which can be considered "white" depending on where you sit and yet still gets treated as 'other' but publishers.)

Mercedes Lackey wrote Joust, a series set in a fantasy style Egypt. It was a win only that it wasn't yet another version of her rewriting Grimm fairytales in various ways. (She's got 2 series of this nonsense.) Was it accurate? I'm not sure. I'm not 100% up on my Egyptology. Was it refreshing, hell yes until book 4 and that took me 2 times to get past the first 50 pages.

Would I read more Egypt based fantasy? Sure. Hopefully by an Egyptian.

Would I read a Japanese based fantasy? I'll just go watch anime thank you. I have a copy of Okami somewhere.

On the other hand really good worldbuilding is a skill. Most authors aren't medievalists like Tolkien. They are either not exactly caring like Lewis making it up as they go along to poke fun at his friend, or rather missing the point of what they do know like GRRMartin. And unless it's a debut, they might not have enough time or edit space to really create a rich world due to deadlines.

And some readers can't really tell the difference between something meticulously researched and something kind of thrown together. My rather easy entry mostly white fairy tale retelling of Sleeping Beauty meets Beauty and the Beast to save a Rapunzel got this "this is a really rich world" comment from a reviewer. And I'm like "really? I made the elves green but they are still Celtic/Gaellic, the dwarves Australian and black and made the dragons sentient. And the centaurs are BLATANT rip off of the Riders of Rohan with some Bedouin culture tacked onto it. Rich, okay then, it's 190K words across 2 books. I dunno about RICH. That's not a lot of words, I just spent most my time making sure the names of the characters and the names of the countries came from the same language root! And since both were based in Latin, much easier. The next trilogy is going to involve a lot of swans. Maybe I better throw in some black ones." Search me.

I've gone on. I hope this explained something and was remotely coherent. Good Night!

'Sure, hopefully by an Egyptian'

See this is a weird point to me. Ancient Egypt has as much relationship to modern Egypt as Celtic tribes do to America. Unless they're a scholar, they're as likely to get things wrong as any non-Egyptian. Plus just st because things are filtered through an author and publishing house that is strongly Muslim instead of Christian doesn't make it any better. Maybe more refreshing in the US, but no less a sanitisation of the culture.

And like, "Ancient Egypt" is a couple of thousand years of history and wasn't all one thing either.

But one could read non-American/UK SFF, which is becoming more accessible as publishers are picking up more international authors. There's even web-based magazines that do a great job at international and translated SFF. Strange Horizons just did a special on Palestinian authors, and it also hosts Samovar for translated SFF.

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

I wanted to go "hopefully by an egyptologist."

Because you're right, it is highly removed from today's Egyptian culture and there are a great many different ages of Egypt's history. And so if you have the proper research, the race of the author probably shouldn't matter.

At the same time, I don't like that assumption. And I also know, Tolkien being an exception, writing historical prose versus writing fiction is two very different skill sets. So, I'd be worried an Egyptologist would be too focused on the prose/fact aspects versus being focused on conveying a good story. It's journalism versus fiction. I get extremely wary due to experience if I see a journalist writing fiction or um, a journalist as an editor of fiction. YMMV this is only my experience.

"Would I read a Japanese based fantasy? I'll just go watch anime thank you. I have a copy of Okami somewhere."

Oh, I think this quote inadvertently demonstrates some of the problem. I feel like every few weeks or so we get an "SFF bores me from lack of diversity!"

But then, those people will say they won't read short fiction, won't read authors outside of the US/UK, or they primarily read/watch the highly commercial exports like anime, won't read experimental fic, won't read poetry, won't read anything that uses anything other than 3rd person omniscient, won't read anything that's not a "series," won't read anything with politics, won't read anything with too many non-English words, won't read anything with neopronouns, won't read anthologies for underpublished groups, won't read Tiptree/Otherwise or FIYAH curated work, won't read work published in zines, won't read work that doesn't involve a post-Tolkienesque idea of "worldbuilding" (which is missing the point of Tolkien, but that's a rant for another time)...

After a healthy selection of all that, it's clear that some of the fans who complain the most about a lack of diversity and innovation in SFF don't actually want to read any of the works or formats where that's happening. It's magical thinking, "give me something in the exact same format and tropes I'm familiar with, but different."

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

So, you're going to ding me for referencing I want to watch Japanese fantasy anime by japanese people and play a video game BASED on Japanese Mythology and then make an extreme eleven point jump assumption about my reading tastes.

okay. Um. Sure. (I do get to a point you aren't making your comment about me. It could be read as personal though and if I was 15 years younger.)

Your long paragraph is describing the societal prevalent attitude that "If it's not traditionally published, it's inferior." Or "indie authors can't hack it traditionally so they are vanity projects." Or. "Wattpad authors suck." Which totally disregards the extreme miracle it is to get traditionally published when you're going through slush. Agents are actively looking for reasons to disregard perfectly fine and well written books.

Also, POC authors who are in different genres have their books compared to each other even if it makes no sense, soley because they are POC and the publishers decide them being POC is the biggest factor on what is going to be profitable for that book. So POC books might not even be picked up b/c "not profitable." And you know, that a lot of established authors aren't earning out the major advances they're being given so, maybe we should start working on making books stand on their own no matter who the author is and standardizing some of this advertising and shit b/c books are selected to where they will go on a list long before they're published so, authors can know where they truly stand.

It's a systemic problem.

And yes, your last paragraph is true. Some fans do not want to read weird westerns or scifi westerns b/c it's just too different. Or afro-centric fantasy or insert BIPOC culture here. They don't really want to leave their comfort zones because they like reading certain things and would appreciate those certain things with a more colorful cast of characters. They want diversity the same way they want to vacation in a foreign country. Oh, there are the natives, and pretty scenery and I can still find people who talk my language and I can try the less spicy food before going to McDonalds. Maybe try on native dress for an hour. They are understandably frustrating. It's also their right not to want to dive into the idea of "I'm going to live as they do for a year." And trad pubbed books are made more for this tourist mindset while indie books aren't.

And to them indie books are trash, so we have to push publishing towards the full on experience over the tourist experience so these readers, now acclimatized by the tourist experience, can maybe feel not so uncomfortable with the full experience. And the books then won't fail to launch. Trad publishing hates risks. These books currently being published as indie are major risks to them unless they believe the audiences will actually embrace them.

Movies have to think about this too. For every MCU, you've got a Cowboys & Aliens pushing things too far and audiences not prepared for it. (Me, can I have more of that, please? With a more diverse cast and women not fridged!)

In the current publishing climate, no one is winning. There is a new book community twitter villain every week. Ownvoices being used as a hammer instead of a promo tool. And publishers showing their true colors (S&S). And book review people now trying to organize to hold them accountable. Change is slow. And frustrating. If it happens at all.

(CWA)

PS. The people who think there are no politics in SFF are the ones who drive me the most batty. In general, to me it means they haven't engaged at all with any of the works they claim to love or missed the entire point.

Case in point: Star Wars

Man, I love star wars, the fans... I avoid the fandom for a reason.

"okay. Um. Sure. (I do get to a point you aren't making your comment about me. It could be read as personal though and if I was 15 years younger.)"

If it's not about you, well, don't make it about you.

It just gets really frustrating 'round here to see enthusiastic recommendations shot down because they don't fit into acceptable genre/format slots.

are you american because I doubt there a only 5 publishing houses in the world that matter

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #5230 ]

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