fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #760 ]

[ SECRET POST #760 ]

⌈ Secret Post #760 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

[Battlestar Galactica]

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103.

[Anderson Cooper]

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104.

[Hayate the Combat Buttler, Nagi and the Student Council Trio]

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105.

[Smallville, Supernatural]

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106.

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107.

[Nabari no Ou]

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108.

[Heroes and 'Gute zeiten, Schlechte Zeiten']

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109.

[Hellboy 2]

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110.

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111.

[Bleighton]

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112. [repeat]

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113.

[Psych, Dexter]

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114. [repeat]

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115.

[Supernatural]

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116.

[High School Musical]

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117.

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118.

[PGSM RPFS Keiko KitagawaXAyaka Komatsu]

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119.

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120.

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121.

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122.

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123.

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124.

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125.

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126.

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127.

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128.

[resized, not repeat]

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129.

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130.

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131.

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132.

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133.

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134.

[Kimi wa Petto]

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135.

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136.

[Scrooged]

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137.

[Avatar]

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138.

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139.

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140.

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141.

[Ghostbusters]

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142.

[katemodern]

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143.

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144.

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145.

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146.

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147.

[The Terminator/T2: Judgment Day]

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148.

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149.

[Lordi]

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150.

[Left4Dead]

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151.

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152.

[Tokio Hotel]

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153.

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154.

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155.

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156.

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157.

[Phoenix Wright/Ace Attorney]

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158.

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159.

[Kodomo no Jikan]

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160.

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161.

[Avatar, Stormbenders]

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162.

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163.

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164.

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165.

[Friendly Hostility]

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166.

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167.

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168.

[Being Human]

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169.

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170.

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171.

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172.

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173. [not a secret]

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174.

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175.

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176.

[Hugh Laurie/Stephen Fry; House/Wilson]

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177.

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178.

Notes:

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Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 264 secrets from Secret Submission Post #109.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Just because an argument is logically correct doesn't mean it's true. Logically, it makes sense than an omniscent God means that all of life is predetermined, but anyone who stops to think about that for a minute can figure out why it's fucking stupid.

However, the notion of free-will is necessary to modern societies because our entire justice system is based on the false idea that people are responsible for what they are

This is a question to be answered by sociology, not another circular and insipid philosophical argument about free will and determinism by people who overthink everything.

By virtue of both classic science and modern quantum physics, the Universe is either random or deterministic. Since humans are part of that Universe, they're also either random or deterministic. That's all there is to it.

The core idea behind this proposition is that human mind acts on a cause-reaction logic or on randomness. Either nothing happens "just because" OR everything happens "just because". Nothing over-thought about this proposition.

Thaaaat's pretty much bullshit. The decisions we make aren't predeterined or random because we weigh the options (usually) and decide which one is best for us/the group as whole.

Yeah. It's a completely false dichotomy. You can argue that those are the ends of the spectrum, but there's plenty of room for overlap.

You don't understand the meaning of predetermination in this situation. Who is the you weighting the options if not a system of perception, hormones and logical thought? Said decision was nothing but an illusion; it was nothing but the logical consequence of the combination of some determined situation, background and biology.

I know I am me because I can determine that I am. I have the capacity to understand that I am myself. My thoughts, my sentience, all determine that which is me.

I think, therefor I am.

The point is that understanding is basic in logic, you merely perceive and decode. You are a temporary construct of action-reaction reason, hormones and experience. Thinking is merely a consequence to the external. You wouldn't be you under different circumstances because this "being" that is you is merely an outcome.

If you had no computer to be reading this right now or if you were never given proper education or and or and or. And this is me simplifying everything to the understandable. It goes much further into your microbiology and the way our brain is built.

The "I think, therefor I am" does nothing to contradict a lack of free will.

But the point that things could've been different does not undermine the idea of free will either. Yes, things could've happened differently. I could've been born elsewhere. But I would've still been a person. And ultimately, I was not born somewhere else and my life has existed as it has.

I do not merely think and decode either. I do not run solely on logic and hormones. I have emotions, I have thoughts. I can problem-solve, and ultimately I can choose. As logical as the argument may be, it does not take away the fact that I do have choices and I do make those choices of my own will.

Emotions are determined by experience and hormones while thoughts and problem-solution work on a fundamental action-reaction basis. You're a reaction to previous events, both in the microscopic and macroscopic levels.

Your statement is "I have free will because I have free will" with no actual argument to back it up. It is a simplistic appeal to emotion rather than to logic. Unless you believe in something like transcendental in the line of a soul, it is impossible to defend the idea of free will.

Meanwhile, you privilege logic over all other ways of knowing because of the society you live in and the legacy of the Enlightment. In fact, you assume that because an argument is not necessarily logical, it is automatically invalid, but there really isn't a reason as to why a logical argument is better than an instinctive one, especially when the topic is "Do I have free will."

This has nothing to do with instinct versus logic. Realization of determinism doesn't imply total disregard of instinct. Why would it? Nothing changes in the way you run your life, nothing. The fact of the matter is, those emotions, external ideas of responsibility, logic and the like are the best things we have to go by at the time, determinism or not.

I'm only representing my own arguments on the subject where applicable and while I'm very sure of my deterministic point of view to a degree I'm also not positive that it can be proved or exploited in any meaningful way. This does not, however, mean that no support for determinism can be derived from a universe that in many ways function as clockwork. It's in this root where I find more reasons to think that humans are driven by a clockwork system rather than the spark of free-will.

Sigh.

This has nothing to do with instinct versus logic.

Given that you've been throwing 'logic' around for this entire argument, I think it sort of does.

In the context of proving a reality, logic is certainly the only way to go. I never claimed otherwise.

Re: 110

melengro.livejournal.com - 2009-02-04 19:43 (UTC) - Expand

What's overthought about anon's proposition is that the only logical conclusion is that there's no responsibility for any human action and therefore no such thing as good or evil. You can say that everything has a cause while still acknowledging that it was not the only possible outcome.

But it was the only possible outcome, that's why it happened. Either that or both outcomes happened in different realities like quantum physics propose... and in such a situation, all of our actions would be random.

That's a circular argument.

Not at all. My point is that either humans act based on action-reaction or humans act based on randomness. So either our actions are not created just because and they have a reason behind eliminating any notion of free will or they were random in the first place.

And my point is that the idea that every action has a reaction, or that all actions have a cause, is not mutually excluded from the idea that there are always many different outcomes that could have happened within the system. There is no one single path.

And - as a counterpoint to that - there is no completely free will. Everything happens within a system, but that system is one of influence, not control.

If all actions have a cause and all actions have a consequence, there is indeed a single path. For there to be different paths in such a system, it would need to have either an action that has no reaction or an spontaneously created action without a cause. This is pretty basic logic.

That's exactly right. Every action has a cause, but not every cause has an action. Stop and think for a moment, I'm sure you'll find plenty of examples of this in your life.

If it is a cause, it is because the reaction already exists. However, I'll assume you meant that not every action has a cause and say that such would be impossible unless said action exists beyond this chain of causality. It's about consequences.

Everything that happens has a cause. Hormones, environment, external impulses... these are causes.

I didn't say that. Don't assume a different meaning becaues it doesn't make sense to you! I am saying that not every "cause" has an action, because it is only a possible cause. It could have caused an action, it's perfectly suitable to do so, but then it doesn't.

Then, you have causes with multiple actions, or multiple courses of actions. You can react in many different ways to the same cause.

Look, all I'm saying is that you're supposing a linear system when there is absolutely no basis to do so.

Possible causes already created some kind of outcome. That's the reason said final outcome exists. Nothing goes without consequence and it creates an effect to some degree.

And the problem is that the system is either linear(action-reaction) or random and there is no logical way to go around it unless we assume something can be created out of nothing.