fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5531 ]

[ SECRET POST #5531 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5531 ⌋

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Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 16 secrets from Secret Submission Post #792.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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If the Jedi had listened to Yoda instead of Qui Gon, then Anakin would never have become Darth Vader and the Order would never have fallen. It's all Qui Gon Jinn's fault for arrogantly deciding he was more in tune with the Force than anybody else.

Maybe. I mean, the midichlorians *eyeroll* were still there, so maybe the Sith or someone else would have found him.

But the Jedi could have also not have been dicks about attachments and feelings. Anger and fear are both natural, useful emotions - I think bitterness, resentment, and rejection are things that lead to the dark side.

He'd just be another stableboy slave who played with action figures and used a bit of The Force to help with his chores. Not ideal, but still a step up from a tyrannical mass murderer who brought misery and death to untold billions.

ayrt

Sure, I guess that could have happened. But I very much doubt Qui-Gon would have let him just go on back to Tattooine to be a slave without trying to figure something else out. But, if I recall correctly, what Yoda said was in a big meeting with a bunch of Jedi, with Anakin there, and his high midchlorian count was a big deal. So, I think there's a chance that someone outside the Jedi could have heard about it, like, hey, Palpatine or Dooku or a random Sith Lord, or Anakin himself could have sought out someone outside the Jedi to train him, having a not-great impression of the Jedi way.

Anakin ended up a fucked up person because he was taught any negative emotion is bad, including grief. Instead of being taught how to properly deal with anger and grief, he had no idea how to handle them once his mother died and so the years and years of denying them exploded because the Jedi are self-righteous privileged idiots for the most part who don't want to deal with anything remotely messy and think just ignoring a problem will make it not a problem.

I mean, Anakin himself might not have showed up to be a problem, but they'd still have had the active Sith Lord sitting pretty in the Senate fucking shit up for them, with them apparently none the wiser. Plus, I think this is only 10 years pre-Clone Wars, so I'm pretty sure production has already started on the clones, Dooku is in the mix as well, and there's the whole Galactic Civil War still budding. Like, Anakin was a nice fulcrum point, but Palatine was already moving all the other pieces onto the board, and all the problems that caused the Jedi to fail so spectacularly with Anakin already existed. Palpy would have found a pressure point somewhere. If it wasn't that specific kid, it would have been someone.

This. Yes Anakin went dark. But without Anakin, who would have killed Palpatine? Anakin had to go dark so he was in a position to kill Palpatine and end the Sith.

Without Anakin intervening, Mace Windu would have killed Palpatine.

Without Anakin telling him Palpatine was a Sith, Windu wouldn't even have known. If you take Anakin out of this picture back in Phantom Menace, then yes, Palpatine loses a weapon within the Order, but the Order also loses their only window on who the Sith is. So there's no guarantee that in a world without Anakin-the-fallen-Jedi that the Order even learn who their enemy is before he's set the world on fire around them.

Yeah, but the world without fallen Anakin probably would have missed out on the Jedi baby slaughter.

More generally, Palpatine would have been deprived of one of his most powerful weapons, and all canon implications are that there wasn't another Jedi who was both strong enough and uncertain enough to suit Palpatine's purposes. Taking Vader out of the picture doesn't stop the world being set on fire, but it possibly makes the fire more containable. Or, at the very least, makes it no less containable and potentially prevents a bunch of psychic preschoolers from being murdered.

Again, depends. We have no way of knowing, but Order 66 was a function of the Clone plan, and probably didn't actually need Anakin himself to enact. So whatever Jedi General was on-planet would have been offed, and the Clone forces march on the temple anyway. Maybe without Anakin, the defense hold longer and the kids get away, but maybe they don't. With the chips, the clones aren't going to balk at kids, because they can't, so if the Sith forces breach the temple at all, the slaughter of the younglings is absolutely still on the cards.

Anakin's turn is so late in the war. There's so many pieces already in play, ticking down to the fall of the Order. The Seperatists. The war. Palpatine's ascension to Chancellor and then use of the war to alter and strengthen the position. The Clone troopers. Order 66. Anakin didn't cause or even really hasten any of that. That's all been in the works for a literal decade before Anakin ever falls. Darth Vader is a bonus prize for Sidious, but he already had the galaxy ready and waiting.

You can't contain what you don't know about, though.

Palpatine was going to come out eventually. Otherwise, his whole "take over the known universe" scheme kind of fizzles.

Well, yes, but even in canon with Anakin, he wasn't actually outed as a Sith until he was already Chancellor and Order 66 was imminent. Without Anakin to tip Mace off, Order 66 could well have gone off long before he's outed. He's playing the civilian chancellor to the hilt, the Jedi combatants are murdered in one fell swoop, any clone troopers he has on Coruscant kill the temple, and literally no one knows he's a Sith for the entire thing. He takes over as Emperor in the aftermath, exactly as he did in canon. No part of his plan actually depended on turning Anakin. As soon as he got the clone troops up and running, and had a war set up to put the Jedi in their sights, he had the Order toppled. Once he's Emperor, outing himself as a Sith does ... probably nothing. The canon Empire had no problems with it, after all.

I don't believe that. I think Palpatine was letting Mace overpower him so that Anakin would intervene and take the final step to the dark side. if Anakin wasn't there, Palpatine would have easily overpowered Mace. He beat Yoda fairly easily, and Yoda was stronger than Mace.

that's not necessarily true, actually. yoda has more raw power, but mace actually has the better weapon (and dare I say it more balanced). Mace's lightsaber was specifically good against dark side users, because it makes the dark side work against them.

Is that canon? I thought that was just Legends. Anyway, I don't think it particularly matters because Anakin is the one who told them that Palpatine was the sith lord. They wouldn't necessarily have found out until it was too late without Anakin.

It's in the encyclopedia which is still canon. I don't necessarily disagree with you about whether Palpatine would have been exposed, even Dooku and Greivous didn't know, but I was just disagreeing with "Palpatine let Mace win"

Rewatching the fight, it's hard to tell. It starts 4v1 and Palpatine slaughters every other Jedi there, but when it's him vs Mace alone, Mace really looks like he has it handled. But Palpatine didn't pull the force lightning or any of his stronger powers until Anakin was there to witness, which lends a bit to the 'throwing it to lure Anakin' idea. When he does pull the force lightning, Mace successfully tanks it, but it takes effort from both of them. Sidious is getting aged rapidly by the force of the Dark Side running through him, and it looks like Mace just powers through it to shut him down. But Palpatine really acts it out for Anakin the whole time, playing his role as victim to the hilt. 'Don't let him kill me!' So it's hard to tell. Maybe he threw the fight to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. Or maybe he was genuinely in deep shit and decided to act it out in hopes Anakin would save him, not specifically to lure Anakin anywhere but just to save his own skin.

I could see it either way. This being Sidious, specifically, who's made his whole career playing the innocent or the victim or the ally to get Jedi where he wants them, it's so easy to imagine it's another blind and Mace has nowhere near the control of the fight that it looks like he does, but it's also really easy to imagine Sidious pulling that on the fly specifically because he's currently in trouble as well. He's physically frailer than a lot of Sith/Jedi combatants, and he spends most of his time specifically trying to avoid being on the front lines, so he could just have been on the ropes for real and reaching out for whatever assets he had.

Right, but force lightning is Palpatine's best power. If Mace counters it, that suggests that Mace's saber skills are genuinely That Good. More to the point, the point of Mace's saber is that it is using Palpatine's own power against him. Mace is literally the one of two people who can do this without turning to the dark side. But I agree that Palpatine was putting on show for Anakin. I just don't think he would have won that fight against Mace's saber. Mace without saber, yes absolutely. Mace with? I think he was genuinely in deep shit. But, hey it's not like it's clear! I don't think I've read the novelization, but maybe they say something about it.

Part of the reason Mace got bodied was that he held Palpatine at bay because he was expecting Anakin to come in on his side. Palpatine held back because he knew he had Anakin in his pocket. Take Anakin out of the equation, and both of them have to be more, pardon the pun, forceful, so it would still come down to the wire.

Also, Yoda got damaged because he was already fighting with the handicap of exhaustion from the battle at the wookies and the emotional toll of seeing everything he'd tried to build torn down and his friends killed. Plus he was forced to fight on the battleground of Palpatine's choosing, and he still almost won there too. Palpatine got lucky, it could have gone either way on both fights. Anakin was the deciding factor. Leave him sweeping up bantha poodoo on Tattooine, and he's just another Darth Maul at worst, and just another faceless slave at the most likely.

Qui Gonn screwed the pooch by insisting he be part of the order and defying the council to teach him. The people of Alderaan thank you, Qui Gonn.

Anakin might have been the deciding factor on the Mace fight, but again, without Anakin there wouldn't have been a Mace fight, since Mace didn't know until Anakin told him. And Order 66 had literally nothing to do with Anakin, so everything Yoda was dealing in his fight again had nothing to do with him.

There's a strong argument that turning Anakin is actually Palpatine's main mistake. In the prequels, it's the thing that actually alerts the Jedi Order to his existence while his plan still hangs in the balance and could yet fail. In the OT, having turned Vader and kept him at his side is literally what kills him.

The war, Order 66 and the fall of the Order did not depend on Anakin. The Emperor's death did.

SA I would also argue that the main cause of the Order's fall, and the point where Qui Gon also screwed the pooch, was in their acceptance of slavery as a necessary evil. And no, I'm not talking about Anakin or even Shmi's slavery here, I'm talking about the literal slave army that they accepted the service of and that was promptly used to kill them. The fact that Anakin's fall mirrors it is because Anakin's fall is a symptom of the same underlying problem. Qui Gon, like Yoda before and after him, was perfectly fine with accepting Shmi's slavery as a consequence of getting what he thought he needed, ie Anakin. That was his mistake, the moment he screwed the pooch. And Yoda and the Jedi accepting the necessity of a tailor-made slave army built for the Jedi is what allowed Palpatine to murder almost all of them in one fell swoop.

Anakin's fall was not the cause of the Order's. Literally, he had nothing to do with the plan that actually killed them. His fall was a symptom of the same enemies and institutional problems that caused the Order's.

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[ SECRET POST #5531 ]

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