[ SECRET POST #5569 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5569 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 20 secrets from Secret Submission Post #797.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

01. https://i.imgur.com/FzxDbKm.png

[(Anonymous)]

I know, it's both baffling AND kind of toxic, but I don't really get into much discussion with other fans about it outside of FS. It's been a case of culture shock, getting used to the casual sexism and antiquated gender roles in cdramas. AT BEST, you still get remarks like, "She couldn't do [something good OR something bad], she's just a girl!" when referring to adult women. And that was in a modern cdrama, mind you, not a historical one.

But I also see some major crushing on the male lead (especially if it's a popular actor) and a lot of the hate comes from toxic jealousy that is (somehow) socially acceptable? I see this more in the actual Chinese-in-mainland-China fandom, not the western portion, though I don't doubt it exists there, too.

It's also really, really rare to see a truly independent female lead. A lot of them start off promisingly, but as soon as the romance arc reaches a certain point they're reduced to the same stereotype of the child-like fragile flower. Any abilities or goals they might've started with sometimes just... vanish? Because their whole world now centers around the male lead, and nothing else. It's one of my least favorite things about cdramas, and this is usually why I avoid the romances.

[(Anonymous)]

You might like Dream of Chang'an/Stand By Me?

While there's a kind of F/M romancey track, by far the strongest relationship is between two longlost sisters - the Idiot Hero one and the Elegant Plotty one - and gosh darn do they circle around each other in interesting ways.

[(Anonymous)]

I had good luck with Hong Kong martial arts movies with female leads for this sort of thing back in the day. "Vengeance of Snow Maid" and "Against the Drunken Cat's Paws" are a couple that I remember liking a lot. Also, "Heroic Trio" with Michelle Yeoh is really, really good, as is it's sequel (but I can't remember the name of the sequel off the top of my head.)

OP/Secret maker

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, it's true that independent female leads in C-dramas are not so common which is why I appreciate it when they do exist, as far as it's possible in a typical C-drama script, and aren't merely reduced to being a male lead's love interest.

But English-speaking viewers on YouTube and Viki (I have zero clue about Chinese fans from China since they watch on different websites and I'm not fluent enough in Chinese to read their comments) always have something negative to say about it. It's like they WANT the main girl's whole world to centre around the main guy even when the drama is clearly focussed around the her goals and development.

I'm sure some of it comes from toxic jealousy but is that all?

[(Anonymous)]

I must ask, what fandoms love strong female leads? I'm a slasher, I'm focused on two guys in my fandoms, so I may be missing these fandoms, but I can't even think of what they might be. Hit me!

[(Anonymous)]

Star Trek Picard adores its female leads. The most popular ship (more than twice the next most popular) is Seven of Nine/Another Woman in Her Fifties. Agnes Jurati is pretty popular, too.

[(Anonymous)]

Very cool, thanks!

[(Anonymous)]

Outside of Star Trek and Leverage I haven't really seen any, tbh, but I am also not looking so that might be why.

[(Anonymous)]

I know Parker is popular but I guess I would have assumed most fics do revolve her around Hardison and Eliot, so she wouldn't quite fit the 'not revolve around a guy' part of the secret. And I would have assumed Sophie gets ignored, it's great if she doesn't!

[(Anonymous)]

Well, femslash fandoms, obviously

[erinptah]

...I feel like most shows with female leads (or co-leads) tend to pick up fandoms that are into them. Doctor Who, Once Upon A Time, Legends of Tomorrow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Steven Universe, all the criminal procedurals led by m/f duos, all the Disney princess franchises, and the entire magical-girl genre, for instance.

(Unless you were asking for cdrama fandoms specifically -- I'm not familiar enough with those to list any.)

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know cdrama shows, so those names wouldn't mean much to me.

I've watched some of the shows you mentioned but not been truly fannish fic-wise for them, so even a show like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, yeah, it feels like the fandom should love the strong female leads, but the people I know slash two of the male characters and complain about Buffy being mostly written in unhealthy relationship fics with Spike. It's good to know people are seeing more sides to fandom than I have!

[feotakahari]

Most cartoons for young girls. Not sure about anything for adults, though. I sometimes see Killing Eve fans—are their women “strong”?

[(Anonymous)]

Agent Carter had its flaws, but it was pretty good in this respect. So were Captain Marvel and WandaVision. Agents of SHIELD was an ensemble show, but I really loved the recurring female characters in it, particularly Jemma Simmons, Bobbi Morse and Melinda May. I also liked Daisy Johnson a lot when the narrative wasn't turning her into a Mary Sue.

[philstar22]

Tolkien fandom, at least the Silmarillion part, may be very, very slash heavy, but I don't see much hate for female characters. Galadriel, certainly, is adored, as is Haleth. Luthien is often considered boring, along with Beren, but I haven't seen much hate.

[(Anonymous)]

The X-Files, definitely! Scully's strength tends to be portrayed in subtler and more low-key ways than some other strong female characters, but the vast majority of fandom respects and adores her, and IMO she's not written as helpless and lovesick anymore than Mulder is. If anything Scully tends to be the emotionally stronger of the two of them, while Mulder is a bit more of a mess.

I'm not in the fandom, but I'm pretty sure SG-1 fandom generally does right by Samantha Carter, too.

Kara Thrace and Laura Roslin from BSG are magnificent badasses, each in such different ways from the other.

And okay, it's campy AF and painfully "early-aughts" in vibe, but Sydney Bristow from Alias is another badass female lead whom the fandom generally respects.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, agreed. It's pretty unfortunate that some fans are way behind the times when it comes to not being shitty about female characters. I know the intended Chinese audience still has this problem, but really, the English-speaking audience wants to do this too? It's dumb.

OP/Secret maker

[(Anonymous)]

I honestly don't know much about the Chinese fandom. I'm only talking about the English-speaking audience and yes, it really baffles me they think this way.

[(Anonymous)]

I can only speak from my experience and my POV as a first gen South East Asian American woman, and I am aware my POV isn't representative of majority/other Asian women. From my experience, Asian communities still have a lot of internalized misogyny that goes unchallenged and unaddressed. Many individuals want to uphold traditions and that includes upholding the patriarchy and placing value on women creating and caring for a family (so if a guy gives a woman attention she better take it because the worst thing in the world is being a woman alone).
And that's why I don't talk to people about watching Asian dramas. I'm tired of hearing women yet again bash another woman because she isn't living up to the Asian ideal of being self sacrificing by giving up our personal hopes and dream and potential because a guy came in and he's the main character now. And let's not forget the gay panic scare too. A woman's lack of interest in "catching" the guy might make the heroine a lesbian, oh no, Asian women can't be gay or queer. 🙄 Just...so many things. It's best for me to watch and enjoy in silence.

And it's not just women from the motherland. Not just boomer/elder millennial women. It's a big issue that is difficult for me to talk to other Asian women about. Like, even with my own sisters it's difficult to have a nuanced conversation with them about the female experience.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not the OP, and I know very little about Asian dramas generally, but I still really appreciate you sharing your perspective on this issue. As a white person who isn't in any Asian drama fandoms, I often hear about this sort of thing, but it can be really hard to know how much credence to give it when it's not coming from someone with an Asian background. It was really interesting and helpful to hear your observations and thought on the matter!

I'm sorry it's so difficult for you to talk about with other Asian women, though. I have stuff like that that I just can't really get into with my friends/family, and it can be hard sometimes, not being able to connect with them about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for your perspective.

And I'm so sorry it's hard for you to find someone to talk to right now.

OP/Secret maker

[(Anonymous)]

This explains a lot but this mentality doesn't seem to be an Asian thing only.

While many viewers I watch dramas with on Viki and YouTube are indeed from South East Asian countries like Indonesia and Malaysia, there are also lots people from the West, South Asia and the Arab world. Their nationality doesn't matter, I've seen all of them make the same kinds of comments about how a heroine is ungrateful if she doesn't accept a guy's attention and has her own life.

Their thinking is so far from what I'm familiar with that I used to assume those comments must have come from women from more conservative countries (conservative is probably not the correct word...). I was quickly proven wrong when I started to engage more in the English-speaking drama fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

My middle-aged Chinese colleague is sometimes hard to deal with, because she has that attitude to women in every aspect of her life. I think it's a cultural thing, reinforced by their media and government.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, can't you see the genesis of this in the way these shows treat the female characters? It's slightly less BS when it's a lady in the lead versus just supporting, but even then...

And I could be wrong about this but when it comes to Cdrama, I feel like things have gotten somehow *worse* with female characters over the thirty years I've been tuning in. It's to the point where if Zhou Xun isn't playing the lead I don't bother, because I can't be sure the show wouldn't enrage me. (Zhou Xun is never not a badass, even in the dreaded gongdou genre that was rightly complained about a few days ago.)