fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #815 ]

[ SECRET POST #815 ]

⌈ Secret Post #815 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

[Weird Al Yankovic and Stephen Colbert]

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102. [repeat]

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103.

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104.

[Yu-Gi-Oh]

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105.

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106.

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107. [repeat]

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108.

[Rachael Maddow]

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109.

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110.

[The Office]

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111.

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112.

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113.

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114.

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116.

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117.

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118.

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119.

[Phantom of the Opera]

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[previously linked wrong]

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127.

[hunter s. thompson]

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130.

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131. [repeat]

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132.

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133.

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134.

[Hotel Babylon]

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135.

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136.

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137. [repeat]

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138.

[jake hurwitz]

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139.

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148.

[but why not the men?]

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151.

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153.

[Naruto]

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[Naruto]

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157.

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158.

[Jade Goody]

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159.

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160.

[previously linked wrong]

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167.

[High School Musical]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 275 secrets from Secret Submission Post #116.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Replace "Phantom" and "Christine" with "Guy" and "Marian", and you've got my thoughts on the Robin Hood fandom right there. How stupid do you have to be to find stalking and domestic abuse attractive?

...Because of course, that fugly little twat Robin is *such* a better catch...

Oh, they're both assholes. IMO, Marian should've run off with Will and Djaq at the end of Season Two to see if there were better pickings in Acre.

I'm sick and tired of being told I'm an "enabler" because I ship Marian/Guy; if you seriously think people who ship them wouldn't support victims of domestic abuse in real life, then I totally do not give a flying *fuck* for your opinion on how stupid you think Guy/Marian shippers are. Marian wasn't exactly fighting him off with a stick now, was she? She certainly gave him mixed messages... God, it'll be "sending out all the wrong messages to young viewers" next...

Ooh, we're a wee bit defensive, aren't we?

Marian wasn't exactly fighting him off with a stick now, was she?

Well she didn't exactly have a chance to before he stabbed her in the gut now did she?

Marian wasn't exactly fighting him off with a stick

. . . wow. You just summed up every problem I have with this ship and its supporters. Because she was giving him "mixed messages" (which of course totally didn't have anything to do with the fact that he could kill her at any time, and therefore she had to keep him pacified) it was okay for him to threaten her, assault her, and eventually murder her? And if you think the writers intended differently, you're dreaming. Would you like to hear their opinions on how, quote "women like 'em a little rough" (http://viorica8957.livejournal.com/46508.html)?

OMFG! I don't watch the show, so this is completely knew to me, but that's so out of order it's disgusting. People are so fucking broken when it comes to attitudes on assault. The 'like it rough' needs to die yesterday. And Minghella's got plenty of company in this regard. Just ugh!

And according to this article (http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jul01/rom072301.htm) the presentation of these values in the media is actually influencing real-life women to stay with abusive partners. So much for "harmless fantasy"

Re: Robin Hood- this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8RmjwAuGN4) tells you all you need to know about the relationship dynamics. (And look at the title! It's not about her being murdered, it's about his poor heart being broken. Gag me.)

Um. Hi.

I honestly think that if you put some time in and actually try to empathize (not sympathize, empathize) with the character of Erik, it'll make more sense. At least for me, it's not that the relationship itself is attractive, but more importantly his dedication to Christine.

Erik was perpetually abused for something as petty as his looks, and his childhood was filled with violence, hatred, and cruelty. After the circus and up until adulthood, he was isolated from the rest of the world. The only things he's ever known are music, violence, and cruelty.

Enter Christine. She's beautiful, she's innocent, and she's talented. Erik becomes completely obsessed with her-- since music is the only sweet thing in Erik's life, it's no wonder that he projects all of his innermost desires onto her and her voice. He trains her, pushes her career, commits his life to writing beautiful music for her. Sure, it's intense and kind of creepy, but it's really the only way he knows how to express any positive emotions like love and adoration. And Christine doesn't mind so much because she's probably projecting all of her daddy issues onto him-- he's her teacher, her "master," and she probably feels as though he's supposed to father her in some ways.

Erik's obsession becomes dangerous, because his only way of dealing with the things in the way of Christine's career and his relationship with her is through violence. So in the end when it is Christine that chooses Raoul, it kind of makes him crazy because here he is, armed only with the ability to kill, but he cannot harm Christine (even if it means giving her the chance to be happy with someone else).

No, the relationship is not perfect. Or healthy. Or something a sane person would actually want for himself. But I think his devotion to her is something very romantic.

is something very romantic.

WTF!

You consider that romantic? Really? All I can say to that is...

OKAY!

But it's

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But it's <not</i> romantic- that's just it. It's selfish, twisted obsession. I can empathise with the countless wrongs done to Erik due to his disfigurement, but not with his stalking of Christine.

He wasn't stalking Christine; at least, not in the beginning. In the beginning he was her teacher, someone she trusted and (in my opinion) held affection for (whether or not those feelings were romantic is up to interpretation. Personally I think she thought of him more as a father, he took care of her).

It was when he couldn't find a proper outlet for his frustration that things started to go downhill. What's romantic isn't the fact that he killed for her, or followed her, or tried to force her to be with him by threatening her boyfriend. What's romantic is how someone so flawed and so horribly messed up by other people could come to care for someone that much. He really did love her, so much so that his love consumed him.

That's what's romantic about it.

And honestly, I don't see why people are surprised to find that this sort of adoration and dedication appeals to others-- there are a lot of people who feel unloved and lonely, and to want to have someone care that much about you isn't that unrealistic or strange to me.

You would probably think Edward of Twilight is romantic too.

Ew.

Actually, no. A thousand times no. I like to read literature that doesn't seem like it's written by a fourteen-year-old's text message.

I didn't say you like Twilight, just how Edward behaves (stalkerish and controlling) as romantic. He's devoted to her, right? So that makes it ok.

Um. No? I haven't read the books (other than what few pages I could stomach out of the first one) but doesn't he want to eat her? Like, "get in my belly!" kind of eat her?

That's... uh, not quite devotion. I actually have no idea what to call that, but I'm pretty sure it's not devotion when you actually want to harm the person you're interested in. Doesn't he abuse her physically?

As far as I know, Erik never abused Christine physically, just scared her a lot.

OMG!

And wanting to kill people she loves and cares for is totally OK because he doesn't actually hurt her! He scares the bejesus out of her a lot, manipulatates her, controls her, is possessive of her, even grooms her... Now that is devotion, but not the romantic kind.

That's what we call emotional and psychological abuse, it can fuck you up just as much and sometimes more than physical abuse. You really don't get it. You are exactly what this secret is talking about.

God, I love it when people completely disregard my point. Seriously. It's the best.

I'm not saying that killing people is romantic, or that how he treats her is indicative of a healthy relationship. Read my posts. I never said that I approved, or found it appealing.

The fact that you people love to continuously overlook is that Erik did everything he could think of to show Christine how much he loved her. He was a messed up guy, for sure, but he loved her SO FUCKING MUCH that he would do ANYTHING to keep her.

It's the DEVOTION, not his actions, the fact that he loved her enough to do anything for her, is what I find romantic.

Besides, I'm not asking you to agree with it. I'm just demonstrating that not all people who find the story romantic are enamored with men who would treat them poorly.

Becoming obsessed to the point of trying to murder your competition isn't romantic. No. That's just fucked up.

And while Erik may have been abused, that doesn't mean he was right to kill people and extort the owners of the Opera House.

I'm not saying that he was right, and I'm not saying that I think secret admirers trying to kill your boyfriend is romantic either.

The point that I'm trying to make is that Erik really loved Christine-- he just didn't know how to show it, which sucks because that was the main reason they could never be together. His inability to show real love leads him to commit all of these horrible crimes and in the end, he drives her away. But he really did love her, and that's romantic. That someone who has been treated cruelly for their entire life could find someone to care about, that's a beautiful story.

I'm not saying that I want a guy who will kill all of my other potential suitors. I'm just saying that in the context of the story, the Erik and Christine relationship was beautiful and tragic.

I suppose it ends up being YMMV. I see it as tragic, yes, but not romantic, even if I do feel sorry for Erik. Guy had a crappy life.

I think it's not the same thing, though I haven't seen the current Robin Hood. Perhaps the question you should be asking is why ALW decided to put in a sincerely romantic twist on the story, which in the book is little more than a report about a creepy serial killer who actually states that he's not in love with Christine - he just wants to be like everyone else, and everyone else has a nice little wife that they can go out with on Sundays. It's not romantic in the least, and there was almost no one who claimed that it was a romantic book before the musical.

The musical, on the other hand, deliberately portrays Christine and Erik as being affectionate, as Erik being needy and actually loving her but not knowing how to express it...the majority of people who ship it (I do not, personally. I ship Erik/Victor Hugo. But I'm weird!) probably do so because they sympathize not with the stalking but with the inability to express affection, being disliked for one's looks, and being passed over for the "pretty" one (it's a great musical to take teens to). Not to mention the fact that Christine and Raoul in the musical are both rather, well, stupid. The only character with any personality (and often enough, singing talent) in the musical is the Phantom, so people sympathize with him - even though intellectually speaking, it's wrong. Because in the musical, you don't think about the creepiness of the whole thing - Phantom isn't twice her age, he's young and attractive!, etc. - you just sink into the show and accept ALW's message (which is very Christine/Erik - look at his plans for "new Phantom", it's exactly what OP is ranting about. So terrible. So needless. *sigh*)

Besides, the way I view it, there has to be SOME reason that Twilight is popular with a certain group, and that group is often usually those super-romantics who try to "redeem" Erik and have him "save" Christine from the abusive Raoul - note how the whole schema is changed! Most of the people OP is complaining about don't LIKE the stalking/domestic abuse - they pretend it doesn't exist! In fact, they make Raoul abusive, and then when Christine returns to Erik he is "protective" of her rather than domineering.

...basically what I'm saying is I don't think that most people find stalking/domestic abuse attractive. They find the character of the Phantom attractive, because he is portrayed as being the attractive protagonist - not antagonist - of Phantom of Opera, and then they try to write fic about him becoming happy, which some of them view as requiring Christine - so they change things and make it happy. While ignoring certain other aspects.

Then they try to rationalize it. The best argument I've seen for it being at all "romantic" has been the argument made elsewhere on this page by someone who pointed out that, technically speaking, nobody ever doubts that Othello loved Desdemona. The problem was the opposite - except Erik had his Iago already in his own mind.

Re: the other fandom - I have not seen, I cannot comment, I don't even know what's going on. Each fandom has its shipping wars, though, and I know how that is, so good luck to...well, whoever.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #815 ]

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