[ SECRET POST #5577 + 5578 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5577 + 5578 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.



__________________________________________________



02.



__________________________________________________



03.



__________________________________________________



04.



__________________________________________________



05.



__________________________________________________



06.



__________________________________________________



07.



__________________________________________________



08.



__________________________________________________



09.



__________________________________________________



10.



__________________________________________________



11.



__________________________________________________



12.



__________________________________________________



13. https://i.imgur.com/QRpIO4B.png
[OP warned for NSFW image]














Notes:

Early + double because I'll be away for a bit!

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 07 secrets from Secret Submission Post #798.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

02. https://i.imgur.com/r22wMOC.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

There are not very many classical heroes who aren't shitheads to some degree. I think it just kind of goes with the territory of being a classical hero, the same way it goes with the territory of being a Greek god. It's a pillar of the genre. So if you're going to be doing classics shipping, I think it's going to be a pretty pervasive issue.

[(Anonymous)]

It's kind of annoying how many of the classical shippers don't want to deal with the shitheadery of their uwu targets

[(Anonymous)]

I think that Achille and Patroclus were one of my first MLM ships when I was younger. I studied and read the myths when I was in elementary school, so 20+ years ago, when it was still pretty rare to have canon "queer" (if you can call them that?) characters.
I've read Madeline Miller's book about them and it was a good story with very touching and engaging moments, but IMHO I've never envisioned Patroclus like in her version of the story. Achille, yeah, I can buy it. She actually wrote him waaaay better than his "real" whiny manchild counterpart from the Iliad.
Now my main classical ships are Jason/Medea and Hector/Andromache. I've always had a soft spot for Hector because he seemingly was a very good man with lots of love for his family. Medea is my favourite female character EVER and her relationship with Jason is truly tragic and fascinating.

Maybe Alexander the Great and Hephaestion have a large following? IDEK but Alexander the Great is a great character to explore!

[meadowphoenix]

re: Jason/Medea, I was going to fliply mention that you can always find a fun pairing with two dislikeable assholes! They are one of my faves too.

[meadowphoenix]

Fun Fact: Achilles' name might means something like "he who's people are stressed/grieved" or "he who cause stress/grief"

Greek and Roman media is about extremes (or as they would call them virtues) because that media served an instructive/philosophical cultural purpose. So for obvious reasons you either have tragic lovers or pairings with at least one asshole (asshole being an ideal masculine state to a certain extent for Athenians who seems to have had the most influence on classical promulgation). There simply aren't really any pairing without some assholery.

Furthermore, the reasons people focus on antiquity seem to be specifically be about contextualizing the present with antiquity's gravitas. Achilles/Patroclus is popular not because you'll find a lot of people who really actually think Achilles is great, but because it's one of the few pairing that even classical playwrights contextualized as gay that isn't pederasty, which means that it's a long-standing beacon for people who suffer homophobia. I just don't think classical ships are really about the people in them.

[(Anonymous)]

A thousand times your last point. A classical education has long preceded the decriminalisation of homosexuality in many countries. For generations of closeted guys, these guys were one of the few pairings accessible.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS.
I'm a lesbian, so my experience is very different from the ones of closeted gay men. But for me Achille/Patroclus was very important to frame my sexuality as something "normal" and even honored in the past when I had no access to other queer media. I come from a very homophobic country so it was a pretty big deal at the time.
Then I got the internet and discovered fanfiction and other queer media that never aired in my country. But before that? It was either Achille/Patroclus, Xena/Gabrielle (that wasn't even canonical and heavily censored in my country) or canonical evil queer characters in horror movies.

[(Anonymous)]

"the reasons people focus on antiquity seem to be specifically be about contextualizing the present with antiquity's gravitas" you have GOT to be seeing WAY different posts and fics than I see

[meadowphoenix]

What are you seeing that you think doesn't apply?

[(Anonymous)]

people ignoring any kind of depth to the cultural/historical context of classical ships (mostly Achilles/Patroclus, which I assume is due to That One Book.) and at best using the ancient Greek setting as paper-thin basically irrelevant window dressing, while talking about or characterizing the ship exactly like every other cookie cutter OOC presentation of 21st century popular slash ships. It's all of a piece with the people who make up new versions of classic myths and claim that they're the "original version." Occasionally I run into actual classics fans but it seems to be a small minority.

[meadowphoenix]

so....what do you think I meant by "contextualizing the present with antiquity's gravitas"? because I'm not seeing how this is in any way a contradiction and what's interesting is that you actually hit on what I meant with this: "mostly Achilles/Patroclus, which I assume is due to That One Book"

Not to go all Devil Wear Prada, but sure the kids are doing knock-off tropey Achilles/Patroclus yes, probably because of Madeline Miller's Song of Achilles which itself is the product of hundreds of years of constant re-contextualizing of Achilles/Patroclus, both academically and in major Western lit circles (from the literal beginnings of Western lit, including the playwright Aeschylus and major foundational western philosopher Plato themselves) because there is a validity to seeing a gay couple not as social pariahs for being unconventionally gay but as ideal heroes (unconventional both because being gay was at best outside social morality in the post-Classical life but Greek lit was not and because "who tops and who bottoms in this ship" was an also argument in ancient Greece). They're selecting a ship that was selected for them by the very people in ivory towers from a pile of myth.

[(Anonymous)]

My point here is that there are a lot of people out there who give zero fucks about the characters, their story, or the cultural context. They aren't interested in any of that or what it means, whether in historical terms, in literary terms, or in queer culture terms. They're just interested in their OCs, who have the exact same, completely modern, "personalities" and behaviors as every other OC they have, wearing a different outfit when they bang. This is all well and good when it comes to fandom fun, but it's got literally no relation to any form of contextualization of anything. Except possibly random horniness, or difficulty getting their minds around the fact that foreign cultures and their inhabitants from thousands of years ago were a little different than the personal experiences and opinions of 21st century American high school students. I mean this isn't unique to classics fandom, you see it in every fandom where people don't want to bother engaging with the source material because they prefer just to move their OCs from window dressing to window dressing and don't want things like context or characterization to interfere with that. I'm aware that I sound like an angry shrew who hates fun but it's annoying to repeatedly try to engage with people who claim to be fans of shit you're a fan of, but actually either choose to ignore the source material because it interferes with their pronz or doesn't fit their OCs that they've tagged with the characters' names, or who actively hate the source material because it doesn't align with their pronz or their OCs that they've tagged with the characters' names. This has been a constant in almost every damn fandom I've been in and it always seems to be the majority.

[(Anonymous)]

oh noooooooooooooooooo

[(Anonymous)]

??

[(Anonymous)]

All this is true, but I believe what OP is reacting to is the reality of the Achilles/Patroclus ship in modern day fandom, which is shaped as much by Madeline Miller's The Song of Achilles as it is by actual classics. Pre-2010, even the online fandom wasn't like it is today.

[meadowphoenix]

I get that you think this is just blue but it's definitely cerulean. Madeline Miller didn't get popular (just) because she's a compelling writer. She got popular because Achilles/Patroclus is a historical goldmine that connects with people for zero actual character or mythical reasons and a lot because of the cultural and ethical weight the west gives ancient greek culture juxtaposed with ancient acknowledgment of homosexuality and modern rejection (the positions aren't necessarily so disparate now, granted), as shown through this ship. It's not surprising it's being obsessed over now in the way fandom tends to obsess over slash ships, but it's not a good idea to divorce the current reaction from the history of the ship just because it might feel too different to be connected.

[(Anonymous)]

There’s definitely a finger in every pot here, but I don’t think it’s irrational for someone to just… take personal dislike to the particular manifestation of the ship that we see today. I don’t feel that way, but it makes sense to me (a little gatekeeper-ish, but if they hate, they hate it). Miller’s work became popular because of the status of her subject matter, but her work had its own undeniable influence. It’s pretty typical of what can happen when a popular piece of media makes an academic topic more palatable to the masses.

[(Anonymous)]

And also, I’ll be honest, can it with the Devil Wear Prada crap. I can understand your reasoning just fine. It’s a great piece of academic discussion, just not terribly relevant to what the issue in the secret is. You’re not Meryl Streep in a scripted film, this isn’t a Mic Drop(tm) moment. At times you verge on self-parody. I get that you come here to intellectually dunk on people or whatever, but maybe just talk to us?

[meadowphoenix]

And also, I’ll be honest, can it with the Devil Wear Prada crap.
why should I? I liked it when I did it, and I like it now.

[tabaqui]

Talking about classical 'ships....I really want to read some good Theseus/his bull team in Crete fic. Because...yeah.

[(Anonymous)]

All classical characters have been reinterpreted to such varying degrees since their inception that I don't think anyone can be judged for liking a character who was originally shitty. It's like asking "Who's your favorite Greek god or goddess" -- lots of people have one based on their concepts or versions of them in pop culture -- and responding with "Gotcha, there is no good answer because they're all rapists." As for Achilles,from what I know, people tend to like the stories about him and tweak the characterization around that. These characters are templates, and Achilles is part of a compelling gay love story that's lasted through times where there were very few gay stories allowed to be told.