[ SECRET POST #5630 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5630 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 35 secrets from Secret Submission Post #806.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Oh I have strong opinions about the Dany/Drogo thing! I agree that the show does not at all change the objective disturbing power dynamics of the Dany/Drogo relationship, but I disagree with the claim that changing the wedding night scene didn't actually change the Dany/Drogo relationship significantly. While all the issues with rape, age difference, power difference, and Dany's inability to consent are the same, Dany's *subjective* experiences in that marriage are so important to Dany's character arc -- it is key to so many aspects of her character that she significantly culture-mixes with/assimilates into Dothraki culture and has her Westerosi upbringing intermingle significantly with that culture, and her relationship with Drogo is key to that process happening, and the wedding night is key to laying the foundation of her positive relationship with Drogo. Regardless of whether Dany actually "can" "consent" to sex/marriage, regardless of how meaningless that so-called "consent" would actually be when evaluating the morality of such a relationship, for her character, it absolutely does make a difference that she comes to respect a man who she initially thought would be cruel and uncaring; it's important that they find a way to communicate past a language barrier; it's important to her character arc that the first time she has sex is experienced by her as a sexual awakening and not a violent rape. The show changes all these things, which has knock-on effects not only to Dany's later characterization but also to the way in which Dothraki culture is depicted (whether it is lionized or demonized by the text -- Dany's subjective experiences, which are of course fallible, do add a positive nuance to a culture that also features quite a lot of orientalist elements and could otherwise be a flat stereotypical depiction of the "barbarism" of brown-skinned people, if not for the way Daenerys genuinely comes to respect, value, and identify with it).

I am not saying that people should take away the message "Ah, I see! So it's okay to have sex with/arrange marriages for 13 year olds, as long as they 'CONSENT'! Cool!" But nevertheless, from a *fictional* point of view, how Dany personally felt in that scene absolutely DOES change the nature of that relationship, and therefore is important for understanding her life experience, personality, characterization, etc. going forward, even as all the disturbing power dynamics remain intact in both versions.

(Just so you know, your interpretation of the Dany/Drogo relationship as inherently abusive and disturbing, and the positive wedding night just serving to obscure that rather than alter it, and her "consent" making it MORE, not less, disturbing -- all of that is the majority opinion among book fans. So you're absolutely not alone in your assessment here. My take is the non-standard one. But I have very strong opinions and have been arguing with other book fans on this point for decades...)

[meadowphoenix]

I think you mistake completely what my problems with shippers are (and I think you are reading into what I think about it things I never said). Ironically you are actually presenting my problems with it, in this defense.

The sequence of events in the books is this: Dany and Drogo have a great wedding night. Dany feels a lot of hope that she will be better treated than she was with her brother. This is immediately disabused. Every night for months (I'm not certain how long, but the book gives the sense of unceasing time), she is effectively raped by Drogo. She is miserable, she is confused, she has zero idea of why he is treating her this way, she is in constant pain from this sex. He is increasingly contemptuous of her, and the implication is that Dany is not living up to her promise (there's a great detail that part of Drogo's problem is that the Dothraki live publicly and that she is therefore embarrassing him with her inability to bear up). It gets to the point where she's suicidal. Her narration is telling us that she wants to die. Then she has dragon dream! And that changes everything. It is not Drogo, it's not Drogo being understanding, it is not Dany respecting him, it's not him adapting in any way to her. It's that Dany comes into her Targ. And that Targ-ness means that she can adapt into Dothraki culture admirably, and that she takes control of her life in a way she never believed she could before. Consequently, Drogo respects her, and then they develop a romantic relationship.

Dany/Drogo shippers using the wedding night as something fundamental about their relationship is completely belied by what happens next. Making the wedding night fulfilling for Dany or making it painful does not change the fact that Dany is almost destroyed by Drogo and and has to save herself. I'm with you in that I like the fact that Dany has a good wedding night, not a little in part because I think it gives Drogo depth that is absent from the rest of his time in the books. But it is absent, and on a relationship level, that wedding night does nothing for it. Changing it to have Drogo be more consistent therefore, does not ruin it.

You saying her subject experiences give a positive slant to the culture or is foundational to her relationship is exactly my point. Her subjective experience is actually VERY NEGATIVE, her relationship is actually VERY ISOLATING and it is literally magic that changes that, and it's very telling that that one positive experience has people straight up ignoring what follows until her dragon dream rights the train (which again, has NOTHING to do with Drogo).

[(Anonymous)]

That's really not how I read that post-marriage sequence at all. The writing/language of that part is meant to evoke the image of rape, but if you actually read it, the main reason why Dany is miserable and confused to the point of being suicidal isn't the sex at all -- it's the pain from her saddle sores (which flares up during sex but is always there even when she's just sleeping; she cannot escape this pain) and general shock from suddenly living a horseback nomadic lifestyle, which she is 0% prepared for. Drogo is distant but I mean, they are newlyweds who don't share a language, are traveling all day, and Drogo has returned to his duties following the wedding ceremony. There is a limit to how intimate their relationship is going to be during this time. He is certainly not supporting her/helping her get through her trials, but he isn't the source of those trials either.

Notably, the first thing that happens after Dany's empowering dragon dream is that her blisters heal into callouses. This is really important moment because it marks that the worst of her trials is over -- not the sex, which was never the worst part of the lifestyle, but the acclimatization to a life on horseback. And, following acquiring that basic cultural necessity/skill, she gains the respect of/incorporation into the Dothraki group, because the ability to ride is so important to them. And since things are no longer all miserable pain and alienation, she actually has space to enjoy her life and deepen the connections she has with the people around her. All things her brother never manages to accomplish.

Drogo doesn't nearly destroy Dany -- living a Dothraki lifestyle nearly does. If her relationship with Drogo were more intimate, it's possible he could have supported her better through this transition. But even then, that's not the Dothraki way. He and she were both aware that it was 100% on Dany regarding whether she had the physical and mental fortitude to bear up under the trial in a way that Dothraki culture acknowledges and expects, and she did. There is no cruelty here; she is being treated like any other member of the khalasar. Like, I agree with you on one point which is that Dany saved herself. But Drogo barely enters the picture here at all on either the "hurting" or "helping" side, aside from the fact that they are having sex every night (presumably to conceive a child), which is only a small part of Dany's misery.

Subjectively speaking, as far as I recall, Dany never views the sex as violating and unwanted, just painful and something she cries her way through (there might even be something cathartic about having the privacy to cry because she can't do it in public), just like she bears all the (necessary) horse-riding even though it is a form of torture and it makes her want to die. And like, I acknowledge that there are all these very icky power dynamics to their sex all throughout including here, where Dany, who is very young and has a very different understanding of sex and expectations around it, is "consenting" (she absolutely cannot consent) to painful sex -- like, it's clearly rape. That is what we would call it. And the language of the passage where this is happening 100% reads like a rapekink porn scene (as someone who has written many such scenes...), so all of that complicates the analysis here.

But, ultimately, I do not think this sequence at all shows that Dany subjectively experiences her early relationship with Drogo as rape, or views him as cruel or abusive or trying to break her, nor is it fair to say that Drogo nearly destroyed Dany and she had to save herself from cracking beneath his horrible treatment. I think this scene still coheres with the "great wedding night" depiction of Dany and Drogo's relationship, much better than it coheres with the violent rape of the TV show, even while it is clearly painful and upsetting for her.

[meadowphoenix]

Finally got the chance to read it over, and you're absolutely right, it does come off more as being new to horse country. Mea Culpa to all the Dany/Drogo stans I complained about! D&D are gross for that then.