fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5646 ]

[ SECRET POST #5646 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5646 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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(AYRT) Maybe you aren't but some people, if not most, SURE are. Or at least they are going to assume SOMETHING.

I understand you as I am the same - I am "straight-passing" because I am not in a relationship with a woman but I do acknowledge there are advantages to that honestly.

Of course not, but I mean in the sense that BL/GL stories ARE (often) about gay men/women respectively. In that sense, I don't see why anyone should gatekeep to begin with (even because they were created by het women for het women lol) but if anyone were to gatekeep, I surely wouldn't expect that to be fellow queer/ace women (respectively, in this case) but here we are. And this is what annoyed me about it all.

As I said, can of worms and I am not going to go into that, but I can see why some allo lesbians don't like the usage of "lesbian" by ace (or even gray/demi) people who happen to be romantically more attracted to women and I try to respect that. Just like I try to not be pushy and respect people who think they "have it harder" because they are gay/lesbian which in some ways, for some people, in certain (cultural, social, and so forth) circumstances I think that may very well be true. We often don't know where a stranger on the internet comes from, so in short, I try to not assume and let people speak their minds if it's not deliberately hurtful. I even "understand" prejudice against people who aren't out like I "understand" prejudice against ace people and try to find a middle ground instead of being pushy. But from that to "fuck you cishet"? No fuck YOU.

OP/ayrt

Oh, yeah, I know there are people who do, I just felt like some other commenters in the thread were assuming I did that, and I definitely don't. I try to take what people online say at face value (at least when it comes to gender/orientation) because there's no way to know otherwise, and ultimately it doesn't really matter *that* much.

Yeah. Like I said in another comment, I'm lucky enough to have a very accepting group of family/friends and live in a liberal city, so right now I'm really only getting "why aren't you dating anyone/when are you going to find a relationship/etc." which is kind of annoying but obviously it's SIGNIFICANTLY PREFERABLE to being discriminated against/facing violence/any of the myriad awful things that queer people experience in more conservative/religious places.

Honestly, I personally feel like those people might fall into the gatekeeping category at least a little bit, because people who are publicly in same-sex relationships are generally going to face the same sorts of issues regardless of whether they identify as gay/bi/ace/whatever because it's not like the specifics are immediately obvious to the people who are going to discriminate.

I don't know, I just feel like if I were dating a woman as a bi/queer woman and were facing discrimination because of it, having a lesbian tell me that she "had it worse" would honestly piss me off. The fact that I could be "straight passing" in other circumstances wouldn't change the fact that I was still facing discrimination at that time. I don't know, I just feel like people who are any variety of queer are going to have certain challenges based on various factors, and some might "have it worse" in some circumstances while others do in other circumstances and trying to make it a competition just doesn't seem constructive to me. But that's just my opinion, and honestly I don't even know if I'm making sense so if not sorry about that lol.

But yeah, "fuck you cishet" is not useful in any situation as far as I'm concerned. (The fandom I'm talking about has discussion mainly on a forum, and my only real interaction with the straight ladies was responding to them being like "bi isn't good enough, the character must be GAY" was just being like "hey, I'm bi, and this is why I think bi representation is as important as gay representation" in what I thought was a polite way and got blocked lol.)

(AYRT) No, I totally get you. I mean some people do and... worse, they assume whatever and just roll with it, and that can be very problematic for everyone involved so that was my point, essentially. I read the comment in which you said you live in a blue state with liberal friends, so it's a non-issue to you and I get where you come from. For me, unfortunately, straight-passing is a privilege in the sense of "housing and employment come first because I am poor therefore if I am 'straight' that's a win". And this is why I get... people who believe I have it easier, etc. I do, in a sense.

Oh, sure not. In my case I have never been publicly in a relationship with a woman (...and 2 men at most, stretching it) which is why I acknowledge my privilege in that sense. I have never been discriminated against for PDA with a woman which is why I don't feel entitled to "advertise" being queer as if I knew every struggle so I would rather be honest about being straight-passing - even though I have been prejudiced against merely for being an "unconvincing straight" where I live so I can't even imagine how bad that would be. The episode in question angered me precisely because AFAIK "ex-friend" had never been publicly in a relationship with a woman either, and I just... was only trying to discuss a piece of media, not personal issues. But if we had to discuss personal issues, we don't even come from such different places identity-wise. We just see it in different ways. Sorry, maybe I am not making a lot of sense.

Oww that sucks, really. Sorry about that. Just the other day someone was complaining about possible ace rep in Good Omens being "shot down" by people who assume that character is gay, right? So I guess it's a thing in many fandoms. Luckily not in mine so it's not something I think about, sorry if I sounded insensitive about it.

OP/ayrt

Oh, I totally get why being seen as straight can absolutely be a good thing in a situation where housing/employment are dependent on that. I definitely recognize how lucky/privileged I am to live in the place/circumstances I do, and I hate that there are people who are in circumstances where their identity can be so dangerous for them. Like, even for straight people I don't understand why they would care that someone else is LGBTQ+. Maybe I'm just overly naive in that way, but it literally makes no sense why someone would care about something that does not affect them *in any way at all*.

No, you're making sense, I just wasn't understanding at first, but I get what you mean now, and I definitely agree. Regardless of someone's orientation, if they're not currently in a relationship with someone of the same sex, there are going to be people who will assume they're straight because that's unfortunately seen as "the default", and there are obviously going to be benefits to that in places where someone would be discriminated against for being in a same-sex relationship. And you would think someone who was in basically the same situation would understand where you were coming from, so that sucks that your "ex-friend" was acting that way.

Yeah, I saw that. The fandom I'm talking about is a lot smaller/more obscure than Good Omens so I don't want to say what it is, but although I'm not *super* into the Good Omens fandom, from what I have seen, there's a similar sort of discussion going on. In both, there seems to be a group of people who think it's more important for shows to have specifically *gay* representation, while there are others that think shows just need more queer rep in general, including characters that are bi/pan/trans/ace/whatever. (I'm obviously in the latter group, and maybe I'm being a bit contradictory in the "it's not a competition" sense I mentioned before, but I can't help but feel frustrated because there have been significantly more gay characters than bi/pan/queer-in-whatever-way ones in media.)

Anyway. I definitely didn't think you were being insensitive so don't worry about that. Honestly, I'm just annoyed with myself for being drawn to fandoms with this kind of drama lol.

(AYRT) Exactly. Yeah, I don't get people either. Or why people should care either way. Honestly. WHAT do I care what other people do in their private time as long as it's respectful and doesn't hurt anyone. I have heard of people... being unable to loan an apartment because they're not straight and !! what will other residents' kids do !! if they are seen going inside with someone of the same gender, PDA in the public area or whatever. And it's just... I get it in a way, but also... how about... do nothing? Don't do a thing. So, kids will know not everyone is straight. Point?

Yes, exactly. When people who "benefit" from that also feel like they should gatekeep others from enjoying queer media however they want in their free time (again as long as it's respectful and doesn't hurt anyone) I am like... what? Even if I was a cishet woman talking about BL/GL - am I being (or at least TRYING to be, as I was accidentally offensive) respectful, yes? Am I hurting anyone, no? Then just let me be? You know. Some people feel like, because they have already changed a lot in the sense of fighting their inner demons and prejudices, that others will have gone through the exact same process. And it's just not how it happens, particularly because some of the "others" had radically different experiences growing up in different places, times, etc. I got shit for "maybe not being straight" (maybe!!! not!) when I was too young to know what "straight" meant. Sometimes the SAME people who gave me shit for it in the past try to act gatekeep-y now and it drives me crazy. Fucking honestly.

Oh, it's okay. Yeah I do feel like "multiple headcanons" are welcome in my fandoms, generally. But I also feel like younger members often want to "settle" on a single collective headcanon, and I HATE that. Let people write the characters however they feel better about/best represents them/their reading/experiences? As long as it's canon-compliant (and even if it's not, AUs exist too) it's fine, don't like don't read? Also, just respect the author's decisions and if you aren't happy about it then write an alternative ending? It's not that hard! It's how we did back in the days of no SNS!! Nowadays people complain on Twitter and the author has to make changes! Recently I found out that a series I enjoyed had its finale CHANGED for the BluRay. (Because some freaks who get no pussy were mad that the girl didn't want to be with the guy.) Shit?

Anyway, sorry if I sound a bit angry about some of this lol, just taking the opportunity to "vent" too. I hope that your fandoms get better somehow, and/or that you end up finding some new, better fandoms!

OP/ayrt

Oh, god, the whole "think of the children!" crowd (especially since that same group tends to not give a fuck about "the children" in other contexts, but that's a whole different subject) drives me nuts. It seems like that whole mindset has gotten even louder lately (at least in the US; I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere) and the idea of being so scandalized by the fact that non-straight people just *exist* is just...so fucking stupid.

Yeah, that's just dumb and annoying. I mean, for fuck's sake, just let people enjoy whatever they enjoy as long as they're not hurting anyone.

In this fandom it seems to be older people (that have described themselves that way, and some of them are queer, too, it's not *just* straight people, they're just the ones that annoy me the most with their gatekeeping) who act like there needs to be One True Acceptable Narrative.

The main character and one of the more minor characters have both had relationships with men in canon, one has had relationships with women too, and the other has been heavily implied to have had a relationship with a woman in the past, so there's nothing to contradict them being bi, but from interviews I've seen with the writers, they seem to be a bit...oblivious about identities other than gay and straight and I'm expecting a "they were only with women because they were in denial/because of social pressure" kind of situation. (And I mean, don't get me wrong, it's cool to have gay characters because a lot of writers don't seem to want to write about *anything* non-straight, but there are other things than just gay and straight.) So the "they must be gay" people are probably right, actually, but until it's confirmed, let us headcanon them as bi, dammit! lol

I hadn't heard about the ending of something being changed because of whiny incels, but that's just ridiculous!

Thanks! I really love this fandom and I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised but if not, hopefully there will be something better somewhere down the road!

(AYRT) Yeah, this. Thanks for wording it nicely, lol.

Hmm, got that. Awwww that sucks. I feel like, oddly enough, even in BL/GL fandom (which is technically written for/by young cishet women although it's obviously not always the case and probably hasn't been even the majority for the past 20 years but w/e) bisexual characters seem to be a common-ish trope? They weren't just "experimenting", they were in a satisfying heterosexual relationship before getting into a satisfying homosexual relationship (and I have seen even the opposite, too). If anything, self-identifying gay kids may go "omgg they're so gayy" almost jokingly, but nobody disagrees that canonically they are... not. I hate being reminded that "they were in denial" is a thing in fiction. It feels to me like it validates those crazies who believe that "bisexual people are just secretly gay!", and makes it seem like queer people just... get into false relationships for selfish reasons. Not that this kind of thing doesn't happen IRL (*cough* I did talk about what I got myself into) but it's not The Universal Experience and bisexual people exist, absolutely. Now I kind of hope they end up making it so one of these characters ends up being canonically bisexual and the interviews were just deliberately misleading lol.

Yeah, me neither. I was/am horrified.

Best of luck!!

OP/ayrt

I'm not super familiar with BL/GL but I have seen several fandoms where the writers are kind of notorious for biphobia/bi erasure (like, a gay character will start dating someone new, find out they identify as bi, and then what follows is a ton of negative stereotypes and BS about bi people). I feel like a lot of older people, even "liberal" ones can sometimes be a bit...narrow-minded when it comes to other aspects of the community than the L and G (I know a lesbian who thinks "you're either gay or straight" and that bi people are confused, she's also said she hates *all* gay men so she has some issues). Hopefully as time goes on there will be a bit more representation for those of us in the community who are something other than lesbian/gay. (Sorry if I'm whining, it's just frustrating that society is SO much better than it used to be when it comes to queer people overall, but still ignorant in certain ways.) And yeah, that would be a nice surprise!

You don't need to respect lesbians who don't like homoromantic asexual women calling themselves lesbians.

That's kind of how I feel, honestly, and I think someone who does that falls into the category of gatekeeper that's discussed elsewhere in the thread. Not exactly the same thing, but I know a woman who's married to another woman who's been told she's less of a lesbian because she and her wife are both more traditionally "feminine" so they don't have things as hard as more "butch" lesbians, who are somehow more "real" lesbians apparently? I swear, all the infighting is fucking exhausting.

(AYRT) To be fair, I don't need to respect anyone. I just personally choose to try to understand and respect everyone who has a point, selfish as it may sound.

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