fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #829 ]

[ SECRET POST #829 ]

⌈ Secret Post #829 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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[The Nostalgia Critic]

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[Sarah Vowell and Kate Beaton]

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[Mean Girls]

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[Darkwing Duck]

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[DC Comics]

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[Mirandasings08]

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[24]

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[One Piece]

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[Worst Witch]

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[Prison Break]

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[Storm Hawks]

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[David Cameron/Barack Obama]

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[Supernatural]

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[Robin Hood BBC]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Heroes]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 210 secrets from Secret Submission Post #119.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

And you posted this secret to defend the people that got it, but simply didn't like it/agree with it?

When will people learn that the whole book is about moral grey areas and morally subjective characters? Not even Rorschach, the face of moral objectivity, the poster child of Ayn Rand's philosophies can remain completely objective (ie forgiving the Comedian for a supposed "lapse in judgement" that he would most likely kill anyone else for). The Comedian is not supposed to be a hero but he's not supposed to be a villain and Sally Jupiter is not the bright new face of feminism. When will people learn that?

I'm not even going to get started on the fact that you don't understand how Veidt was trying to achieve world peace through attacking the major cities in the world. An outside threat can bring enemies together. I'm just going to leave it at that.

TL;DR: You have proven in spades that you simply "do not get it" despite the rejection of that stereotype of Watchmen haters in your secret. Please focus on things a little more black and white if you want to be spoonfed morals and cannot come to your own conclusions.

this

I was just going to reply to this secret with "You didn't get it!" but your post explains some reasons why, thanks.

The characters were more "realistic" in that they are fucked up and have questionable morals and values. You don't like it, fine, but it doesn't make the film "lame."

Seriously: Is there a universe in which people can not care for Watchmen and not be told they "didn't get it"? Because I'm still not seeing one.

oh you can, but the person pretty much outright said they didn't get it.

Yes. See I can get not liking it and having understood it, but barely anyone who *doesn't* like it says "it wasn't for me," they say it was "bad." What pisses me off, (and probably other fans who end up retorting "they don't get it") is when someone says it wasn't a good movie/a good solid film because they don't like it. I hated Dark Knight but I will never ever say it wasn't good. THAT'S why people get crazy.

...but have you considered the possibility it's not a good movie/a good solid film? There are definitely people who have given stupid reasons for calling it a bad movie ("this movie says lesbians are evil therefore it is bad and the people who like it are bad people"), but even a lot of fans of the comic have said that the movie wasn't a great movie. As a huge fan of the comic, I think the movie is highly enjoyable but highly flawed.

Nope. I watch a lot of films and I'm sorry it's not bad. It's just not. I will never argue that it's not flawed, but bad? Jesus what are we comparing it to?

I think there are some people who should take the "it wasn't for me" route, but others who are fully within their rights to just say it was bad.

I love the comic. I love comic-adaptations and movies that deal with darker issues, but I really disliked Watchmen. I felt it was sub-par. *shrug*

Sorry. Not buying it. I'm sorry, it just wasn't "bad." Bad is Battle Field Earth. Bad is The Hottie and The Nottie. This wasn't a "bad" movie. I will never say it was perfect, but a bad movie? There was no way this book was ever going to be a movie and have it be completely successful, but sub-par? Cripes. The acting? Awesome. Casting? Dead On. The imagery and use of music? Stunning. Flawed maybe, sub par compared to what?

There's something a bit double-standardy about saying that there is absolutely objectively no possible way that the film could be considered 'bad', while insisting that those who want to make similar objective statements that it was bad preface with a disclaimer of personal preference.

I think that there are aspects of the film one can look at and say "this is badly done". When I watched it, I felt that the pacing was subpar, with a lot of time spent hashing out relatively simple (if interestingly novel) subversions of superhero tropes, followed by a massive dump of trite truisms in the last twenty minutes which the movie then left no time to explore. To me, that makes it a bad film from the point of view of storytelling (though not necessarily in terms of character or world building). I don't feel the need to temper that with a copy of my own psych write-up or anything.

Riffing off the original secret, I too really wish the "you missed the point" reaction could be Old Meme already. The movie's interesting, but it's not a bottomless pit of profundity. We're not talking onion-like layers of artistic nuance here.

"There's something a bit double-standardy about saying that there is absolutely objectively no possible way that the film could be considered 'bad', while insisting that those who want to make similar objective statements that it was bad preface with a disclaimer of personal preference."

I am terrible at communication. I'm sorry. I just mean I can't ever say it was bad. It just won't happen, I don't think it. I have no idea how I am supposed to defend something I thought was beautiful and touched me, with out saying it wrong.

I think I have been beyond diplomatic about my feelings for other films (that will remain nameless) and just wish people would do the same.

I agree on the pacing, but with out it being a few movies, there was no avoiding it. (Hell, I'm still fuming all the Bernie/Bernard stuff was cut in favor of other things.)

Well, that's your opinion.

I thought the some of the acting was good and some of it was godawful. The casting was 50-50 for me. The imagery was great, I'll grant you that (although I found the glorification of the violence distasteful). The music? Good music, horrible use of it. Cheesy and obvious.

But those are all my opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I think you're fully within your rights to like the film.

From my perspective, it was sub-par compared to a lot of movies. And so what if the chances of it becoming a movie were low? Personally, I could have done without the film (in this incarnation) entirely.

Obviously that is my opinion. What I think was never an issue. This whole thread is making my head hurt. All I set out to say was that there are people out there who will say it, OR OTHER FILMS are bad, just because they don't like them and that that in no way makes it true. That's all. I didn't set out to argue about this film.

Last bit on the film from your comment:
I must say about the music though- it was used like it was used in any other non-super hero movie that has used non-incidental music. Especially period pieces, and this was. Ever see Almost Famous? Steal This Movie? Forest Gump?

Re: Speaking for me.

3goodtimes.livejournal.com - 2009-04-14 16:46 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Speaking for me.

glamourcorpse.livejournal.com - 2009-04-14 21:15 (UTC) - Expand

TBH, I have seen people say they didn't like it who didn't get told they didn't get it. However, by say that Rorschach &c. they were basically pointing out that they didn't really get it.

This.

This. Very well said. *applauds*

People can get that Sally's relationship with Blake is not supposed to be a black-and-white good or bad portrayal and still not like the comic/movie's treatment of that storyline. People can get what Adrian was trying to do--it's not that difficult, considering he explains it--and still think it's a stupid plan. The Comedian being a hero, now, I'll give you.

For all the people respond to Watchmen secrets with "the fandom isn't intimidating/elitist"...there's a segment of it that really, really is. Don't get me wrong, there's also an awesome community, but when literally every single criticism of the book or movie has multiple people saying "You just don't get it," it's gonna drive away people who don't love every aspect of Watchmen. And thinking "either you love it or you don't get it" is pretty black and white, don't you think?

It's all in how you word it.

I think what a lot of people are missing is that you're not supposed to like certain characters. Saying, "I don't like the Comedian," is a rather silly reason to dislike the film considering that was the filmmaker's intent. That's like saying you really disliked the Nazis in Schindler's List. Of course you didn't like them, that's the goddamn point! Of course you're not going to enjoy rape or want to hug a megalomaniac! These people aren't Superman. They're various shades of normal and bad people! You're assuming that everyone gets that. But they don't. They really don't.

I think a better criticism would be that the film was so full of bad people you found it nearly unwatchable. Or you felt the director was irresponsible in his depiction of rape. Or that you thought the effects were silly. Or that the filmmaker was not good at getting his intent across. All valid points from certain perspectives.

You seem to get it. You realize that there's a distinction here. The OP doesn't seem to understand the difference between thinking a movie was well done and enjoying it because you like seeing a woman brutalized. And that's what's so mind-numbingly frustrating to a lot of Watchmen fans. That some believe all people who enjoyed Watchmen find bloodshed and evil sexy and fun (no doubt there's a group that do, unfortunately). Which is not the case for most of us and we feel the need to defend the movie and ourselves.

I really think that the bit about Rorschach makes the secret beyond just not liking the movie's treatment - personally, I'm a bit creeped out by people who think Rorscach is some kind of hero. Anyone who thinks Rorschach has sympathy for life is missing the point entirely.

Frankly I think that anyone who thinks that Rorscharch has 'moral objectivity' falls into this category as well.

Agreed.

THIS.

Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

Thank you, I totally agree.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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