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fandomsecrets2022-09-06 12:13 am
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2022-09-06 12:13 am
[ SECRET POST #5722 ]
⌈ Secret Post #5722 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 45 secrets from Secret Submission Post #819.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 04:32 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 04:36 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 05:00 am (UTC)(link)* Davies and Chibnall are not exactly blameless, either.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 05:12 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 05:15 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 05:24 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 05:47 am (UTC)(link)Somebody above described Moffat as being much less clever than he thinks he is, which is definitely the problem. Both the Doctor and Sherlock suffered because of it. Moffat's writing is all tell not show when it comes to every detail that is supposed to define them as characters. Their flaws are lip service. The universe in which they inhabit bends to deliver results which are designed to show their brilliance, even when not borne out by the weight of the narrative. Both are hallmarks of Mary Sues (as well as bad writing in general). What makes it a case of Mary Sue over just bad writing is Moffat's obvious egotistical identification with both characters which has blinded him to their depth and nuances and reduced them to shallow, heartless shells of characters.
As for Captain Kirk, he is a much more nuanced character in his original incarnation than his enduring legend has become. He's mature, intelligent, articulate and an exceptional captain in a way that is realistic. His gifts and flaws are realistic and the universe he inhabits doesn't bend to his character. Fan boys who want to be him have conveyed Mary Sue aspects on him over the decades, but he was never actually written that way.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 07:51 am (UTC)(link)(Don't get me wrong, 10 had problems. (I still can't clean Time Lord Jesus out of my brain, much though I want to.) But his flaws were frequently portrayed as problems. Things that caused difficulty and pain and that he becomes at least somewhat aware of by the end of the arc.)
Compare that with the pre-reboot seasons, the ones with all the hokey sets and endless serials, where the Doctor and his companions were exploring historical periods or futuristic sci fi settings, watching living people making choices and having to live with the consequences. In many ways, early Who was a lens through which the audience could study humanity. New Who - while it does have a lot of things to like, tends to lose that. And goddamn, is the Doctor a Mary Sue.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 08:32 am (UTC)(link)I mean... this is *more* true of Classic Who than New Who, but there's also plenty of stuff you can point to from the third Doctor period onward where the universe bends around the Doctor and he's the most important person ever. For instance, the entire character and personality of the Fourth Doctor, or a bunch of Seventh Doctor episodes where he's a massive dark chessmaster, or a lot of the more Gallifrey-centric plotlines and crossovers.
Ultimately "the Doctor is incredibly special and powerful and central to the universe in a myriad of ways" is a fundamental core premise of the show, and has been to one extent or another since the 1970s. It's more pronounced in the Moffat era because Moffat happens to be particularly unsubtle about his affection for cleverness-based power fantasies, and also is sometimes just a bad writer, but it's basically in line with the premise and nature of the show and character.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 12:38 pm (UTC)(link)Main characters of any gender who are ~~special~~ get a pass from being Mary Sues, by virtue of the fact that they're supposed to be that way. It could be (and usually is) poor writing, but it's not being a Mary Sue. Any character of any gender who is what I described in the first paragraph is what makes a Mary Sue.
So yup, the Doctor gets to be special and River doesn't! It would be that way if the Doctor had always been a woman and River was a man.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 04:16 pm (UTC)(link)Very much agreed! Mary Sues are Mary Sues because of the way they warp an ongoing narrative to be All About Them. And yes, Gary Stus are a thing, as well.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 04:41 pm (UTC)(link)Most male protagonists do get a pass. But even Harry Potter had lots of discussions about how Harry was a Mary Sue back in the day.
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(Anonymous) 2022-09-06 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)Very, very wrong.