fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5812 ]

[ SECRET POST #5812 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5812 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 41 secrets from Secret Submission Post #832.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Like, I get that you're just supporting the original commenter. But the Hermione/Harry/Ron drama wasn't an anti-style moral crusade, it was literally just a ship war. And a large part of the ship war was people saying things like you just said - basically saying Ron was a shitty character. Like, you are just reprosecuting the anti Ron/Hermione argument right here, sheesh.

As a fellow former nerdy, bookish teenager, I would like to be able to think Ron/Hermione is cute without someone writing an essay on how any character either than him is a better fit for her.

And I bet most Harry/Hermione fans feel the same. So, maybe the solution is just to chill on both sides?

+1

like, one of the big reasons that the shippers got hate - over and above the typical dynamics of a massive ship war - was because they tended to have this very negative view of Ron, to see him as a fictional version of real-life people they disliked, and to see the whole fictional relationship through that lens

while on the other hand, a lot of book readers just liked Ron, even ones who didn't necessarily ship Ron/Hermione (I certainly didn't).

Anon that the AYRT RT

Aren't most of the characters people like and dislike colored by their experiences with actual people, though? I don't get how this is supposed to be an incorrect thing that inspired special bitterness.

I've seen fans twist themselves into knots trying to pretend that their opinion of a character is somehow "objective" and in fact universal, but that seems like a fool's errand, to me. If we were all seeing a story in the same way, there would be nothing to explore by discussing it.

I can see that what I brought to this conversation was unwelcome. But I don't understand why. People say "I like this character, and not that one, and here's my thought process on it" all the time, on fandom secrets. And then agree or disagree with that and it's fine. But in this thread, five people replied to say roughly "hey, don't. We liked Ron." And I wasn't telling any of you to stop liking Ron, so I'm not sure what to do with that.

NAYRT

I’m not either of the anon’s you’re responding to, but I was the one who responded “This” downthread. I only really agreed because I do like Ron overall, but that was a shallow reason to second that post. I didn’t, and still don’t, agree that your post was in any way anti-like. And I even agree with your reasoning for not liking Ron/Hermione. I always knew they were going to get together, because the trope of ‘two characters of the opposite sex arguing all the time actually like each other’ was so prevalent at that time(which is a trope I’ve always hated btw). And I didn’t hate it when it was going on, but I didn’t love it either. But after the series was done, I really grew to loathe the ship. I don’t think their ship dynamic is my thing at all. I was a shy, bookish, and geeky girl when I was a kid, and I have never felt attracted to anyone I didn’t get along with. I think Hermione definitely deserved better.

But I still don’t hate Ron. And I don’t hate Harry/Hermione, I just don’t ship it(or anyone in HP honestly). But I found the amount of Harmonians who constantly bashed Ron during the hight of the Harmony vs. HeRon ship war irritating and exhausting. And that was on top of the large amount of Ron bashing that happened independent of shipping reasons, even in fic where Ron shouldn’t be relevant one way or another. I always hated character bashing in fic when it wasn’t at least given some warning beforehand(ie: “This fic contains Téa Gardner bashing.”, “Don’t read if you’re a Sakura Haruno fan”.). And there was a lot of that in HP fic. But if it was warned for, I just wouldn’t read it, and it’s not a big deal. Because there truly is nothing wrong with hating a character, or even bashing a character, and then expressing it in a public platform. It’s just really annoying to me when it comes out of nowhere.

Your response wasn’t Ron bashing, nor did it come out of nowhere. It was a perfectly natural place to state your feelings. Nobody should act like your opinions are unwelcome. Especially because they’re not stated in a nasty or mean-spirited way. And I helped contribute to that by seconding a post that accused you of anti behavior. And for that I sincerely apologize. It hasn’t happened more than once, but I do know how it feels to state a pretty normal opinion and have someone take it the absolute wrong way, and not consider they’re reading your words in the most uncharitable way. It wasn’t seconded more than once, but that still made it more frustrating. So I should have thought about it more before doing the same to someone else, and for such a stupid reason. Just because you stated your reasoning for preferring Hermione with Viktor or Harry doesn’t mean you’re saying your preferences are the only moral ones. And it definitely doesn’t mean we’re back in the middle of the ship wars, so there is no reason for my knee-jerk reaction to be to agree with someone who likes Ron over someone who doesn’t. Again, I’m sorry for contributing to a thread that tried to invalidate your words for no reason. You hadn’t said anything to deserve that, not even remotely.

AYRT

First off, thanks for the thoughtful, considered response. I got good things out of this. And "I have never felt attracted to anyone I didn’t get along with" is very much how I felt, and had a lot to do with why other fans insistence that constant bickering was how romances were supposed to go bothered me. I probably wouldn't have liked Ron regardless, but I didn't especially mind him when he wasn't taking potshots at Hermione: he was a good friend to Harry overall. And I can definitely see why you'd be annoyed if a lot of fanfics kicked him in passing and didn't think this was worth tagging for!

For what it's worth, I didn't feel terribly attacked by anyone who replied to what I said. I knew nothing I'd said was malicious, but I also don't mean to step on people out of obliviousness. And what I'm hearing is that Ron was a much more bitterly attacked character, back in the day, than I had any idea. Your comparison with Sakura from Naruto was ... illustrative, to say the least.

Bleh.

You seem like a nice person and I hope this conversation doesn't come across as harsh or critical. Of course you're entitled to like or dislike whatever character for whatever reason, and of course people can base those opinions on whatever real-life experiences they've had, these are both very normal things. And I should also be clear that I don't think this is anything like being an anti.

But... I mean, with something like this:

If anything, people insisting that she should marry a guy who was so insecure he'd spent years making fun of her, and passing that off as harmless, seemed like the ones who might be promoting sick relationship dynamics. I was quite tired of "this man and woman argue constantly" being presented as a sign that they were meant for each other, on account of getting along immediately the way some married people went on for years. And all of that seemed like a throwback to a day and age when divorce was a lot less common. :/

I *do* think that this sentiment and similar kinds of arguments were common arguments from people who liked Harry/Hermione. And it's totally possible that I have an overly negative reaction to this because I'm remembering less reasonable, more inflammatory opinions along similar lines from Harry/Hermione shippers in the past. And of course, again, if that's the reaction you have to the ship, that's the reaction you have to the ship. But I also don't think that people who ship Ron/Hermione actually *are* recapitulating outdated relationship dynamics from times when women had less power. And, at the time, the attitude from Harry/Hermione shippers that Ron/Hermione was regressive, and that wrong was totally insecure and a bad romantic partner, and so on, really did rub me the wrong way.

AYRT

Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. Hm - my point wasn't to claim moral high ground. It just seemed to me like the people who wound up having to deal the least with the notion that other fans might dislike their OTP for valid reasons were sailing the juggernaut ship. And I remember them being overbearing about claiming that their ship preferences were the healthy, sane, wholesome ones, and evangelizing. While, frex, Draco/Hermione fans couldn't set foot outside of the spaces they made themselves without facing ridicule and concern trolling. Which was publicly encouraged by the author.

I sorely miss the days when fandom was more insistent on Ship And Let Ship and more committed to the premise that we all deserve respect.

I was also a nerdy bookish girl and I always loved Ron. And I'm not really into HP shipping anymore but "Ron sucks, ship H/Hr" never made sense to me regardless of my love for the character. You don't have to ship either of them, and H/Hr have no chemistry, so shipping it just because you hate the canon ship seems like such a chore.

This.

AYRT

Like I said. I lurked in some of the big, well known HP fandom watering holes. I wouldn't be surprised if what I'm saying you've heard before, from people who were more active and made their own spaces. But I didn't see any of that, back then. I just saw fans reacting vehemently against Harry/Hermione, and gloating because JK agreed with them in interviews that Hermione/Ron was absolutely going to be canon and so on. I paid little attention to it, then, because I wasn't very fond of the main characters. (Or straight, for that matter.)

But people trying to claim that the juggernaut ships they like are uniquely "healthy" has never sat right with me. So, when I see fans saying they shipped Harry/Hermione and putting it in these terms, many years later - as if shipping something on the losing side of a bitter ship war were something to feel guilty about - I feel like offering any comfort I've got.

Also, I think any fan has a right to openly dislike any character, so your claiming the ship war can mostly be blamed on people saying things like I said about Ron seems pretty weird to me.

AYRT

I also was in the HP fandom in is heyday (ie before the final books were published). And I remember the H/Hr fans being just as batshit and annoying as they R/Hr fans. You don't remember H/Hr fans going on about how H/Hr was the "smart" "literary" interpretation of the characters and that literary genius (lol) JKR would validate them and their superior taste by canonising the ship? You don't remember H/Hr fans gloating when JKR said in an interview years after the books were published that she preferred H/Hr? You don't remember the rampant Ron bashing?

Like, just because one of the ships became canon doesn't make H/Hr the underdog. They were both as big and as stupid parts of fandom as each other.

No one is saying H/Hr is 'unhealthy'. Just that it's controversial (because of said ship wars). And you're totally allowed to dislike Ron. But it's unnecessary to bash him to support H/Hr - unless your aim is to just reprosecute the Hermione wars in 2022. Which is a choice.

AYRT

I don't remember that, because I never came across it. I wasn't a Hermione/Anyone shipper, and when I had a little time to read HP forum content, I went straight for what people had thought of key scenes in the book, or character analyses for the characters I enjoyed and wanted to understand better.

Part of what I'm realizing in retrospect (because we're talking ... I don't think this is something I'd have questioned on my own) is that being on what I thought of back then as just a very active, thriving internet community mostly involved one, sometimes two large sites, whose mods were open supporters of Ron/Hermione. I wasn't there for the ship, but by not rejecting the moderator's biases and going looking until I found some other place that didn't censor what the Sugarquill mods termed "Weasley-bashing," I guess I inadvertently exposed myself to a lot of Ron/Hermione in passing, and it was obnoxious to me.

The Harry/Hermione shippers I've encountered since still seem hurt by what other fans said to them and about them during that ship war. I'm taking into account what you said, or trying, but I don't think they're equally at fault, because I've never seen anyone admit to having shipped Ron/Hermione with the concern that strangers are going to come attack them because of it. And I see that over and over with Harry/Hermione fans.

I don't think there's such a thing as "more moral" or "less moral" ships, and detest when people come up with convoluted, petty reasons for looking down on each other. What I meant to say was that R/Hr looks at least as vulnerable to criticism to me as the ships I watched lots of people point at and denigrate, but I'm sorry that what I actually said was disrespectful.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #5812 ]

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?

Re: Inspired by #1 - What is your most controversial ship?