[ SECRET POST #5838 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5838 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 36 secrets from Secret Submission Post #836.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

My experience as a villain fan who really enjoys "seduced to the dark side" kind of narratives, is that I believe that virtually everyone has a threshold where they might snap and do very bad things. Everyone who's lived long enough (past early childhood) has caused harm to other people, whether they meant to or not. I know I have. I think anyone who insists they never have, that they are always the innocent, is someone to be very wary of, because they're not self-aware enough to understand or care that at some point, they were a villain in someone else's story.

So I like to look at a charismatic villain, because there's usually something I relate to there. And it reminds me to keep myself in check in real life, while enjoying that power fantasy in fiction. Because I know perfectly well I have that inner Moriarty and that inner Hannibal and inner whoever. I'm honest about that with myself.

I'm skeptical of people who always and only identify with heroes and victims and judge people who relate to villains. I feel like they're refusing to acknowledge their own dark side, and if they did something that hurt someone badly, would probably play the innocent victim because they are deeply invested in thinking of themselves as a good person.

[meadowphoenix]

"everyone has a threshold for some type of wrong" and "everyone has the capacity to become a killer cannibal" are two very different things lmao. I don't know exactly how you are relating them, so I just wanted register my disagreement about what I see is the framing here. I'd be more inclined to agree with "everyone has the capacity for some degree of manipulation" but I don't think that's the same as having an inner Moriarty and I don't think that's the same as having a capacity for severe manipulation. People have to a certain extent already become a product of their circumstances which might forestall other actions imo.

Anyway, you can have whatever reason, however irrational or personal or theoretical or experiential, you want for liking villains narratives. You can tell yourself its about moral relativism or personal accountability. Those reasons can have any degree of veracity. That's irrelevant to how a class of people, who will all have individual and personal reasons, behaves.

It feels like you're doing the thing OP hates just about hero lovers, but I have no problems thinking there are class dynamics evident in people who only like heroes and think liking villains is icky or whatever. I don't think they're what you think they are (I would guess something more like a uncritical moral perspective, which does not rely on self-regard), but i think it's not unreasonable to make conclusions about a group.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Surely you understand that fiction is exaggerated to levels most of us will never experience in reality, right? Of course I'll never be a killer cannibal IRL, but I relate to Hannibal because his erotic artistry with human meat is aesthetically pleasing to me, and I like to imagine what it would taste like. I'm sure it's amazing.

I don't understand how any of this refutes my original point. Heroism and villainy in the real world aren't about intentions, they're about how much harm you do to others. As a working-class person and a queer person, I know that people who look like me and talk like me and come from a class background like mine are often coded villains in old films that are very much based in elevation of white middle-class-upper-class stereotypes.

But nowadays? In terminally-online fandom, people who look down on villain fans view themselves as morally superior to villain fans. That is a bold claim, and I've seen no evidence whatsoever that it's true, and a lot of bad behavior to the contrary.

I still stand by this though: if you can't appreciate a redemption arc or a forgiveness story, then you are probably blind to things you've done that you should beg forgiveness for.

[meadowphoenix]

right, i considered both that you were using unnecessary hyperbole (in that I think it did not aid in the conversation in a clarifying way) and that you weren't and addressed both. The idea that everyone is capable of the every evil as a reason for relating to villains is your justifying perspective not some deep truth. It's also irrelevant to how people should judge a group of people who relate to a group of villains. Your point, from what I can gather, doesn't really respond to mine in other words.

For the record, I don't necessarily think heroism and villainy are in fact terms with certain social definitions and certainly not necessarily useful ones. Even the idea that harm is the measure isn't universal or standardized. In media criticism, the hero is the one who works with the narrative ethos, and the villain is the one who works against it. Again, I can't really understand what this has to do with my original comment, but if you could explain, I would appreciate it.

Yes, I understand that you feel that way. I think that's a blindness to the vagaries of human motivation on your part lol. Human psychology isn't that straightforward.

[(Anonymous)]

I like villains because of thr power fantasy in the ABILITY to "snap" and do what I like regardless of consequence without having to actually deal with the consequence. Nice and healthy fictional stress relief and catharsis, lol.

For me, it doesn't mean I actually think I COULD be that "evil", because a lot of fictional villains are so over the top, but it's still a fun fantasy to be free of the "rules", you know?

...that being said, I still find this particular flavor of villain, the whiny white guy, to be so incredibly boring because of all the white guys I've met who absolutely think they're that smart or that alluring or that powerful. They're a dime a dozen.

[(Anonymous)]

+ infinity to your last point.

They aren’t creative or compelling at this point. And they aren’t making any kind of statement that isn’t better made by watching real life overprivileged whiny white boys messily self destruct on social media.