[ SECRET POST #5873 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5873 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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04.
[Demons Roots]


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05. [WARNING for discussion of antisemitism]




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06. [WARNING for discussion of transphobia (possibly, just to be safe)]




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07. [WARNING for discussion of transphobia]























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #840.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

JKR didn't create goblins.

[(Anonymous)]

Who said she did? Perhaps you're not familiar with folklore in which goblins feature, but they're not necessarily hook-nosed, greedy, money-obsessed bankers. That's JKR's creation.

[(Anonymous)]

Uh yes they are. They've always been greedy. Ever read Goblin market? It was based upon the fact goblins would get up to no good unless you paid them. Miners would always leave money for goblins. They've always been the cunning, greedy little buggers in all British folk law.

As for that look it's always been that way. From appearing in bible illustrations to Arthur Rackams illustrations to Tolkien.

JK was only talking what already existed.

[(Anonymous)]

There's something to be said that a lot of folklore tropes that were attached to Jews in the middle ages started with independent folklore first, and got added to images of Judaism later. Because in parts of Europe where Jews were expelled, they became a part of mythical folklore just like goblins were - non-Christian strangers we describe in stories but nobody has ever met, at least not without going on a quest far away. There were parts of England where the Fair Folk were called "Pharisees" because basically the same thing, amirite? So you have this nearly universal folklore trope of the people who live in the mountains and hoard treasure, and it places with a lot of antisemitism, some of that gets mixed up with that.

And to some extent, it does feel unfair to ask people to strip out large parts of their traditional stories because they were later attached to oppression of a real people.

But all that said, no, that's not what JKR is doing. The portrayal of goblins she uses is based on a specific 19th century version that links up with Jewish people becoming more prominent in the UK and the antisemitic tropes around them. That was not all there in the not-explicitly-antisemitic older versions. And when this started to be pointed out to her, she doubled down instead of taking the opportunity to go in the direction Pratchett went.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm from a lore-centric part of the UK (like, it's part of our culture). In the folklore I grew up with for Goblins, they were the ones who raided your farm for riches and if you didn't have any would carry off the women. It says to me that the folklore of those Goblins is from raiders (Roman, Viking...whoever). Maybe much later and with more of an American view Goblins = Jews happened, but to a lot of us it's not.

I'm more upset about boggarts because boggarts are not shapeshifting beings, they're naughty spirits which attach themselves to your family (it's what a brownie becomes if you piss it off). I think this is where poltergeists come from.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not particularly American, actually, American antisemitism developed somewhat differently, and Goblins here are almost always treated as imports from European fantasy.

But it is super regional within in the UK, and not just region but other layers too. The specific Victorian tropes on goblins that really stand out as antisemitic were always as much literary as folkloric. (If you know the Victorian and Edwardian fairy literature way too well you can sometimes pick out exactly which references JKR was using and misusing.)

[(Anonymous)]

NA

My first introduction to Goblins was Enid Blyton, where they replaced Gollywoggs. I wasn't aware of the Goblins = Jews connection until fairly recently. I never saw the Goblins in Harry Potter as bad, I knew of the Goblins are untrustworthy creatures but that was it.

British folklore is very regional and mainly in the countryside. I'm from Lancashire and someone from the next village over could have a very different story about Goblins.

[(Anonymous)]

Apparently, the depiction of Goblins in Western folklore as hook-nosed goes back to JRR Tolkien

"After the publication of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit in 1937 and The Lord of the Rings trilogy between 1954 and 1955, the view of goblins in modern Western fantasy began to change. Goblins were now commonly seen as their own distinct race of humanoid creatures. Typical features of goblins in modern fantasy includes a shorter-than-human stature, either a flat or long and hooked nose, bat-like ears, and either a mischievous or malevolent demeanor."

So why aren't we dogpiling JRR Tolkien when it's clear that JK Rowling is just describing Goblins the Tolkeian way?

[(Anonymous)]

1) He's been dead for slutty 50 years
2) People criticize him for this and other things too

[(Anonymous)]

1. People absolutely criticize Tolkien for this stuff, where have you been?

2. The current big Tolkien based media isn't built on the thesis "we should oppress goblins". The current big Rowling based one is. And, frankly, people let the goblin stuff ride for a really, really long time before the new game made it impossible to ignore. (But don't worry, people are absolutely criticizing Rings of Powers' treatment of race too!)

3. "Back to JRR Tolkien" is... less than a hundred years and a high point of antisemitism in Europe? That isn't making the argument you think it's making.

[(Anonymous)]

Ahhh yes, all the goblins who ran banks in LOTR. The Tolkien way!

People do criticize Tolkien for his portrayals of races in his literature, where have you been? But... he's dead and Rowling is still alive, famous, rich and tweeting out silly toxic nonsense, so I'm not sure why're you're surprised that she's receiving more attention about these things in 2023.

[(Anonymous)]

People do criticize him and they'd criticize him more if he'd made the goblins greedy conniving bankers

I mean, come on

[(Anonymous)]

Greedy about fruit and spare change =/= greedy about gold and controlling the banking system.

But I agree, Rowling was talking about what existed... antisemitic portrayals of Jewish people. Goblins in folkore aren't a dead ringer for antisemitic propaganda. Goblins in Harry Potter are, though.