[ SECRET POST #5964 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5964 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[Murdoch Mysteries]



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06. [SPOILERS for Reservation Dogs, season 2]


























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #852.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Nope

Male characters were more likely than females to be identified only by a work-related role, such as doctor or business executive (61% of males vs. 34% of females). In contrast, female characters were more likely than males to be identified only by a personal life-related role such as wife or mother (58% of females vs. 31% of males). Male and female characters were equally likely to be identified in dual work-related and personal life-related roles (8% of females and males).

SOURCE: https://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/

[(Anonymous)]

Anon throwing stats around has nothing to do with how well a character is written, that is meaningless data that doesn't prove your point at all. What do these stats have to do with writing quality? Script quality? Story structure? Nothing. It's showcasing how female characters are more often put in nurturing roles in TV or movies(something that needs to change sure) but that doesn't mean anything positive or negative about female characters on the whole, and if you're trying to imply that it does then you are steering very close to some boggling misogynistic shite that I have no interest in unpacking with you.

[(Anonymous)]

+Infinity

[(Anonymous)]

Fucking thank you

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Nah, I don't think so. The fans who think the women onscreen these days are precious gold find ways to discount the arguments of fans who aren't moved by those same characters, no matter how detailed the arguments happen to be. A lot of it just devolves into a low-effort personal attack: "disagree with character-lovers, and they will accuse you of bigotry." It's as predictable as it is boring.

I used to lurk many conversations in fandom where people would talk at length about why they liked or didn't like characters, and what worked for them or put them off in general, without defaulting to "the only reason someone could POSSIBLY disagree with me is because they're a bad person!!" Usually, I came out with different perspectives about the character. Lately, I just come away with a bad taste in my mouth about the way people are treating each other.

And it's not that I like media being boiled down to simplistic measures like "did it pass the Bechdel test? Y/N." But when the reply is essentially "shut up, you're delusional and also, you suck" regardless of whether the person saying "this doesn't work for me, for reasons," provides personal reasons or academic studies, I can see why they would tend to borrow statistics and other people's words.

[(Anonymous)]

There is SUCH a huge difference between "these characters didn't work for me and here's why" and the bullshit "there are no well-written female characters"

Hell, I've had those conversations too! "I'm not attracted to female characters so I don't spend time on them in fandom" cool, I totally get that! You do you!
"I haven't found characters I like in the genres I prefer" unfortunate, do you want recommendations?
"I don't like feeling like I have to relate to female characters as a female person, so I prefer male characters" fair and valid, shit can be exhausting.
"The patriarchy perpetuates both writing and analysis that centers men more and it's /harder/ to find well-written female characters" very true!! that should change!

It is, specifically, the claim that All Female Characters Are Badly Written that just. Sucks. And I see it, stated specifically like that, so many times and yeah, it pisses me the fuck off, especially when the male characters who are badly written don't get ignored the same way, so it's not JUST that even if it WAS true.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh. As I said to the anon I responded to, below, I don't think all female characters are badly written. Not remotely. They're just often missing a resonance that I want them to have.

I guess we were speaking past each other, without meaning to.

[(Anonymous)]

Cool. I'm reacting against objective statements, not subjective ones.

[(Anonymous)]

The fans who think the women onscreen these days are precious gold

Are you serious with this? If you specifically feel the need to say that the reason you don't ship het is because there are no well-written women characters, then yes, people are going to question that.

Saying that female characters are less likely to be identified with professional roles is a good point about the continuing gender bias that exists in culture. But the idea that, because only 34% of women characters are associated with professional rules, there are no interesting women characters is absolutely ridiculous. There is a huge gap between 34% and 0%.

I don't have the slightest bit of a problem with someone saying that they just like slash ships more, or they just find themselves more interested in male characters, or whatever. It's fine. Whatever. Who cares. But saying that there just aren't any good women characters is a fundamentally different argument. And it's not true. So of course people are going to mention that actually there are lots of well-written female characters these days when someone is claiming the exact opposite.

It doesn't mean that you have to like those characters. But they do exist. That's why people are bringing it up. Not because people are obsessed with female characters being precious gold and can't accept anyone who disagrees with that.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS

[(Anonymous)]

>Are you serious with this? If you specifically feel the need to say that the reason you don't ship het is because there are no well-written women characters, then yes, people are going to question that.

Serious, yes. But I'll own that it might not have been especially helpful to put it like that. What I was saying is not that there are no well-written women characters. It's that the ones I've seen don't have whatever it is that would make them characters I feel like writing about or shipping. They do stand on their own, more or less. Great. That's a vast improvement over when they couldn't even do that. But no, I don't think people "should be" defaulting to assuming I am an ideological enemy of theirs just because their faves don't move me.

Anon posted the thing about the amount of female characters who are still identified in-relation-to-some-guy because someone tried to invalidate their point by asserting that they were imagining it. That lazy characterization of women "hasn't been a thing since the 90's." Which seems like complete bullshit to me, aside from being disrespectful.

(I don't think "how many women are identified by their job" humanizes them any better or says much about the quality of characterization. "This character has a job" is not the same as "this character has an identity," and much less a memorable, compelling one. But that's me, and I think the overall point stands.)

I appreciate that you're not one of the people starting fandom wank with slash fans. If I felt like the original complaint was "there are no good female characters" I probably would have stayed out of it. But this is all with the backdrop of someone expressing incredulity at a secret that says Genshin is the first canon where they feel like shipping women with men, and the female characterization is a step up. I hear that and go "okay, I'm glad OP." Not "where have you been and how did you miss all our wonderful, fictional American women??"

I didn't get the impression that people mentioned lots of well written women in reply. They mentioned Joss Whedon's various badass-yet-alluring-young-waifs from Buffy, an FBI agent from a show that ran for most of the 90's, and Babylon 5. I'm sure I could think of some TV that featured women with solid characterization, too, but women that inspire the sort of soul-deep recognition and loyalty that some of the men got? Not a one.

I'm beyond sure that could exist in media. I want it to. As far as I know, it just doesn't, yet.

[(Anonymous)]

da
I also didn't see a lot of attractive well written popular media female characters mentioned here. Guess there are not many.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, if Buffy's what comes to mind then there's not much to choose from

[(Anonymous)]

DA

That was just one example, and it’s not an example that disproves anyone’s point just because some people don’t like it or didn’t see it in a formative age. It’s fine to dislike actually, but it’s a good example of strong, well-written female characters, and an example of one that existed in the 90s.

[(Anonymous)]

Holy misogyny, Batman, get some therapy and maybe see a doctor about how wide your reach is.

[(Anonymous)]

It's showcasing how female characters are more often put in nurturing roles in TV or movies(something that needs to change sure) but that doesn't mean anything positive or negative about female characters on the whole

... and if you don't like female characters who get shunted into the nurturing roles, that means you're kind of fucked in terms of how many female characters you get that you might find interesting, so.

[(Anonymous)]

Female characters in those roles does not equal bad character, and again: if that's the argument you're seriously trying to make go to fucking therapy and unpack your shit there. Jfc.

[(Anonymous)]

Where did they say it made them bad characters? Sometimes you just don't like a particular character trope, and if that trope happens to be one of the more popular ones in a particular genre of media, it kind of sucks.

[(Anonymous)]

DA Sounds like a you problem. There's plenty of common character tropes for both male and female characters that I find insufferable, even ones I can statistically back up with how common and/or outdated they are, but shockingly, I continue looking until I find the ones I like instead of writing them off.