fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5967 ]

[ SECRET POST #5967 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5967 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 28 secrets from Secret Submission Post #853.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Name some fandom character drama that you still get fired up about.

The ending of HOw I Met Your Mother. Ugh.

Star Wars fandom in general. Just all the drama. And the thinking everyone thinks the same thing about everything. Ugh.

The sexism in Star Wars, Doctor Who, and MCU fandoms.

Just because the female Doctor Who failed doesn't make it sexist.

How do you know that’s specifically what they’re talking about? And either way, it’s subjective whether 13 “failed”. And while it’s fine to not like her, it’s disingenuous to pretend that everyone who didn’t like her or her run was doing so for good faith story reasons, to pretend that there was no sexism from anyone.

It failed to keep viewer numbers, failed to shift merchandise, and failed to garner any critical acclaim, three strikes and you're out. Female DW was a failure. You, specifically, and very-very small (albeit vocal) minority of fans might have liked it, but as a whole, it was a failed experiment that has had lower ratings and lower viewer engagement that even Sylvester McCoy's Doctor, and his was broadcast against Corrie at its height for the period. Sorry.

Sure, but I didn’t mean in ratings. And that doesn’t address my second point, or Phil’s point, that it’s disingenuous to pretend that none of that hate for her and her run was based on sexism. When some people were already hating her before the first episode of her run, it’s being willfully ignorant to say there was no sexism.

We were talking about whether it was a failure or not, the question of sexism is incidental. It was a failure, on all metrics.

“Just because the female Doctor Who failed doesn't make it sexist.”

This is the first thing you said. You’re being blatantly dishonest that it was just about it being a failure with sexism being incidental. Whether the response was sexist or not was the main part of all of this, because that’s the only thing Phil said about the DW fandom, which is the post you responded to first. Don’t lie about what the discussion was actually about as if it wasn’t plainly obvious and right there where anyone can see you’re lying.

Me mentioning it’s subjective that the material of 13’s run was a failure was one sentence, whereas me mentioning that there was provable evidence that some of the reception to 13 was sexist was the main bulk of my reply. You’re again being dishonest trying to tell me what the main part of my response was, when I would know better than you that it wasn’t whether the run was a failure. So you continuing to not address information that proves you wrong about the sexist reactions to 13, and moving the goalposts while lying that “it was actually only really about it being a failure, so I don’t have to address that I was wrong about the sexism” is transparent.

And it still very much is subjective whether 13’s run was a failure, considering works that don’t do well at the initial stages get reappraised all the time. So you using these numbers to argue against something I never said, that it was a critical and merchandise failure, is disingenuous and irrelevant. It was a critical disappointment, not failure, and again, art gets reappraised all the time. And it still has many positive reviews from critics. Plus, your language about people who think differently than you speaks volumes, especially because you have no evidence to back you up.

You have nothing to back you up that the group of people that like 13’s run is a “very-very small (albeit vocal) minority of fans”, because that’s the kind of numbers that you can’t actually accurately measure outside of viewership ratings. Instead, you’re making assumptions based upon your own biases and generalizations. The numbers might not be stellar critically and commercially, but the viewership numbers are about the same as most other runs. Even though they did fluctuate, which is what you’re referring to when you said it didn’t “keep the numbers”. But it’s not actually the ratings tragedy you’re trying to make it out to be. Compared to some of the other runs, it wasn’t a hit. But with views in the millions pretty much all the way through, it wasn’t a failure. You should know that if you looked up the other numbers, but you conveniently left it out because it goes against your narrative. So much for very-very small minority of fans, unless you think the viewership of the 12th Doctor’s run was very-very small too.

It’s obvious you’re acting in bad faith, cherry-picking, and being dishonest, intellectually and literally. As well as picking and choosing what to respond to and what to ignore based on you having no actual counter-arguments to some points, and leaving out important details when they go against what you wants the facts to be. Pretty much lying by omitting crucial details, on top of the actual lies you’ve told. So I’m done trying to have an earnest discussion with someone who’s not willing to act in good faith or stop being willfully obtuse.

DA

I don't know anything about the show, or the characters, but I'm tired of fans being super-willing to accuse other people, just like them, of being morally deficient when they don't like certain media, simply because that media had some minority in a leading role. Yes, when you're dealing with a million people on the internet, some of them are going to misrepresent their motivations when they say "I liked this" or "I didn't like this." But none of the stuff we actually enjoy talking about in depth gets discussed, when the knee-jerk reaction is to assume bad faith, based on something that could mean any number of things other than "I'm talking to a bigot!" And it seems to me that the media companies are exploiting this conversation-ending-cliché to the hilt. Because we used to discuss the quality of work a lot more than we currently are.

Also, it doesn't seem like any coincidence to me that, when a lot of people realized they don't have to rely on some American making a show or a movie with the things they wish they had more of,* the media suddenly discovered representation as a moral good. After DECADES of turning a deaf ear to academia's calls for less dehumanizing and othering of women, gays, non-whites, etc. But the fact that they're making a very half-hearted attempt compared to what already exists or we can do for ourselves would be very plain, if people weren't so defensive on their behalf.

*Competing media from non-western countries has become a lot more readily available, and writing stories and sharing them online with everyone has become much easier!

Because I don't see the media's current attempts at engaging people that they'd previously alienated and insulted as a self-sacrificing gesture, I also don't see it as something we have to be uncritically grateful for. The quality will not improve while half the audience is paying handsomely for mediocre storytelling, and loudly praising it, and everyone who says "this is not very good" will keep having a lot to poke fun at. When someone who is not invested in the principle of watching media for altruistic reasons tries something and then decides the only reason people were fawning over it was because they like the idea of the protagonist being a woman, or whatever, they have a perfectly rational reason, in the future, to wonder if the self-described lefties are lying to them. That's a problem.

When I got into fanfiction, no one had to tell me I should read books written by women, ever again. I was convinced, and there is no going back from what a revelation that was. And I didn't have to convince any of my peers that this writing was electrifying, they found it without me and went "holy FUCK, have you seen this? Wow," and read a hundred more stories in the same vein before they came up for air or sleep again. That's the quality I want in media. And it would settle whether "it's possible to tell a good story" about people who aren't straight, white, men so definitively that no one who brought that up would want anyone to remember they had. Whereas, the quality of the commercial stuff we've got just makes that stupid argument drag and drag. And not because you haven't had the right argument about why it's actually good, yet. Or enough of them. That's not the problem, here.

And just because some of the criticism wasn't sexist doesn't mean that all of it wasn't. Some of the hate (especially the hate just for her existence even before the first episode) was absolutely sexist.

This.

The circlejerking around Legato Bluesummers from Trigun being "psycho", while ignoring the complexities of his character.

Doggett was a better partner for Scully than Mulder ever was.

Mulder was emotionally high-maintenance, and could often be self-involved, but he and Scully challenged each other in a way that was necessary for the job. IMO Doggett, while certainly much less emotionally draining than Mulder, also didn't really bring a whole lot to the table that Scully didn't already possess in spades. He was great back-up, which would certainly make him a better partner under normal circumstances. But the circumstances they found themselves working under were extreme and bizarre, and I think within the particular context of The X-Files and its many perils and challenges, Doggett didn't bring any necessary elements to the equation, while Mulder very much did.

I am still SO MAD about Captain America Civil War. Holy fuck, I feel like everyone is mad about Endgame but I got sucked into the black hole of CACW and can't even care.

I'm also super annoyed every time someone who clearly dosen't read comic books tries to explain comic books to me.

Same here! CACW basically made me lose all interest in the MCU, because I hated it so much.

And I feel you on the second point!

SA

CW functionally destroyed the fandom for any kind of real enjoyment. Luckily I still have the the comics and fans of the comics to talk to but Sweet Christ, that movie HURTS.

I hate it so much. It was a terrible comics storyline anyway and shouldn't have been adapted. And it just didn't work on any level in the MCU. Also still mad about Age of Ultron too, but at least a few parts of that worked.

This! I was so annoyed when I heard they would be adapting that awful storyline from the comics, and it was just as bad as I feared it would be!

Yeah! Like, who decided it was a good idea to make Cap the villain of his own movie? He was completely unreasonable, and shifting it to be about one man, and to have no one just TALK to each other... Like, bad enough that they push it to happen so quick that there's no emotional punch to any friendships falling apart as the team fractures because we never got to see them BE friends, but making it all about Bucky was so stupid and so annoying and just made it so that I didn't want to see Sebastian Stan's face. In anything!

He wasn't the villain. He was completely in the right.

Nah.

DA

Now this one, alone of all the comments I've read about Civil War, is making me wonder what happened.

OK SO

After Stark spent his entire life making weapons that got sold under the table and killed innocent people, and after creating Ultron after everyone on the team, including Cap, told him NOT TO DO THAT, Stark decides unilaterally that "we need to be controlled, we cause a lot of problems" and signs onto some accords that Wakanda was the front runner for, even though Wakanda ALSO had a superhero who was NOT following any kind of international standards. Stark tried to guilt trip everyone into signing them without reading them, stating that "they could modify the accords AFTER" everyone signed them. Which... is not how that works. Cap is the only one shown to actually READ the damn thing after which he says No. Absolutely Not.

The accords required that all superpowered individuals register with their governments and that they are not allowed to go anywhere to help in any disasters unless explicitly given permission by an international committee. Wanda is put under house arrest because people are afraid of her existing, and unbeknownst to the team, there is an underwater supermax prison set up to hold people breaking the law by *checks notes* helping people.

So. Someone decides to use this opportunity to frame Bucky for murdering the king of Wakanda and Steve, who has NOT signed the accords, rushes off to save him because Bucky is the only thing left of his past (and also innocent). Stark, in complete violation of the accords, blackmails a minor, lies to the minor's guardian, and takes this minor out of the country to go fight without permission of the international committee to try and stop Steve, who meanwhile has found out about the guy trying to frame Bucky and discovers that guy intends to release a whole lot of Really Bad Intentioned superpowered people to cause havoc. Stark eventually joins up with Cap and Bucky in stopping the Bad Guy only to find out that, while Bucky was tortured and brainwashed into forgetting his own name, Bucky was used by nazis to murder Stark's parents. Stark then attempts to murder Bucky, Steve intervenes. Big fight ensues. Steve and Bucky escape, and Steve goes to rescue the rest of his team who had been KIDNAPPED TO THE SECRET UNDERWATER SUPERMAX PRISON (Wanda was kept drugged and in a straight jacket) that we find out Stark KNEW about. Wakanda rescinds their support of the accords and provides shelter to Cap's team.

The End.

Just because he has good intentions doesn’t make him “completely in the right” though. That’s one of the reasons why people still think he’s the villain. It’s not always about your intentions at the start, it’s about the actions you take along the way. Cap went way too far and made so much shit worse. Nobody looks good in this awful movie, or the atrocious comics it’s based on, because they’re all taking the worst measures possible to achieve their ends, and acting way stupider than they usually would for transparent plot reasons like drama. They all have understandable goals on paper, at least at the start. But they fuck everything up, and then needlessly endanger people more by having their stupid airport fight. And then Steve and Bucky have their dumb fight with Tony. Who’s just learned something awful and is understandably upset. But that’s still not an excuse for attacking someone he just acknowledged was under mind control. And then Cap and Bucky go way too far in the fight, and Bucky almost beheads him. Which was completely avoidable, and goes so far past the “self-defense” excuse because of how far out of his way he went to get that close to killing him.

So a terrible showing all around from start to finish. And Cap is just as bad as Tony in it. No matter if the accords were trustworthy, or whether Bucky deserved to get punished for crimes he didn’t willingly commit(obviously not), Cap does so many shitty actions. So no, based on all the things he did or almost did, he’s not “completely in the right”, just because his motives were understandable and sympathetic.

Re: Inspired by 6 - drama bombs

(Anonymous) - 2023-05-12 02:55 (UTC) - Expand

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