[ SECRET POST #6002 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6002 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[Identity V]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 31 secrets from Secret Submission Post #858.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

04. https://i.imgur.com/ct7Xfkf.png
[Identity V]

[(Anonymous)]

Oof, that fandom's not alone. I HATE when I'm reading fic set in any historical period and I can tell the author is like... checking off a list of Correct Things To Say and it feels SO out of place and out of character. Like, even characters who would have the right *opinions* would use radically different language to express that, or would have incomplete language for some concepts!

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. It's not like progressive opinions on social issues were nonexistent, but people approached it differently, with different language. I get a little impatient with writers who don't at least TRY to make that fit in with the historical context a little. It's more of a challenge, but not impossible.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah! Like, I don't WANT to look for fics where everyone is "realistically" bigoted, I want fics where progressive opinions are there but the language is period accurate! Like, particularly with being gay not being an IDENTITY but a behavior, for most people, and like, all the ways that were emerging of talking about BEING homosexual rather than just having sex with men (or women, depending), how new it was to define yourself based not on your current partner, but by the pattern of your desires, how revolutionary it might feel to center desire at all when you're expected to marry and have children and it's not ABOUT wanting! There's so much that's so interesting about the evolving ways that we understood and discussed queerness in that time, and I think stories where everyone talks like the author is trying to provide a lesson on how to use all the right buzzwords do a huge disservice.

My current fandom is more contemporary history than this, so there's *more* language that exists, but it's still so jarring when the dialogue feels unnatural because the author drops in a whole, like... speech about current terminology and understanding a huge *breadth* of queer experiences, into the mouth of a character who has NO access to a broader queer community.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh, same. If I'm reading period fiction then I want the characters' attitudes towards things to actually reflect that period, you know?

If I wanted happy sunshine world where everything is great and no discrimination exists, there are plenty of fantasy settings where that can be a thing! Nothing is stopping writers from writing fictional worlds based on historical periods where none of those things exist.

[(Anonymous)]

If you're doing AO3, isn't there a tag for that? I remember seeing it a few times like "canon compliant attitudes toward X", and it's also something you can include in your disclaimer if people still do those. And summary for that matter.

So "18XXs compliant characters" used to be a tag. I remember this because my first fandom was PotC. Sometimes it was waved away (like let's all have a good time whatevs) but there was also a disclaimer in most fics about the attitudes and social climate still being (somewhat, at least) canon compliant or compliant to the times. So there might have been characters that were racist, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. That didn't imply the author entertained those views themselves.

I do get that there are probably some people out there who take no issue and would hide behind the guise of I'm just being compliant....but I think there's a difference.

SA

[(Anonymous)]

The anon below me did a much better (and eloquent) job at explaining what I wanted to say lol

[(Anonymous)]

For me, it's not about period era attitudes, but language-- which that tag filter won't help with. The characters I care about are progressive individuals, but they also live in the middle of nowhere, they do not have resources, and crucially, even if they did, the accepted language would be very different for them. I want it to sound like they're piecing together what they want to say about their beliefs with imperfect language and imperfect knowledge, but with understanding hearts. I want characters who talk about themselves using period-typical language!

[(Anonymous)]

THIS THIS
I don't need exactly absolute "period-type" bigotry I prefer open-minded characters, but usage of contemporary language and concepts breaks my suspense of disbelief.

[(Anonymous)]

Ooooof, very mixed feelings about this one (also I know nothing about the setting or the property in question, so just going off what's said in the secret).

On the one hand, I very much agree that writing historical stuff using hyper-modern terminology about identity is frustrating! Not only is it historically inaccurate, but it's a flat and boring way of writing.

On the other hand, a lot of people use the fact that historical attitudes were different as an excuse to indulge in straight-out bigotry. And that misses the mark even worse than writing everything as totally up-to-date and contemporary, and I think there's just no justification at all for it. People historically were more than capable of thinking rationally about, discussing, and criticizing the dominant social mores of their time and advocating for equality, humanity and decency; they just didn't necessarily do it in the same ways or using the same language that we do today. That dynamic is so interesting to me and it's such a big part of what I want to see out of fic set in historical times - it's the fact that history *isn't* linear and often people think in ways that are just *different* from what we would expect.

On the third hand, getting that kind of historical difference right is very difficult and often requires significant research. So I can't fully blame fic writers for not wanting to do it and just falling back on contemporary attitudes instead.

[meadowphoenix]

I don't ever find this annoying, because...tbh I just don't believe there's ever been a single point in the history of the world where the construction of history in the popular imagination wasn't based on modern sensibilities (whether the belief that people were "better" or "worse"), and I find people being more bigoted than is required more annoying, mostly because they don't understand the context or nuance and just think "it must have been universally worse for everyone no exceptions!"

But I get why it grates in fan media where it purports to ground you in the time period, when it seems based on fandom sensibilities more than anything.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know what this is, but just looking at the art, nothing about it looks 19th century. Not even just the things that you can argue are different because they're obviously fantasy. There's a nun with dangly cross earrings and what appears to be part of her hair showing, something that would have been possible but definitely highly frowned upon in the 19th century (and still would be). Unless problematic attitudes are present in canon, I think you can relax if someone writes a fanfic where nobody bats an eye at some dudes kissing.

[(Anonymous)]

Basically, the game is a co-op Chinese horror survival game in the style of Dead by Daylight - with several survivors getting hunted by one killer. You have several "historical/fictional historical" characters but the setting itself, while vaguely Victorian-ish is very handwavy so yeah, it's not exactly a particularly strict historical setting.