[ SECRET POST #6036 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6036 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 37 secrets from Secret Submission Post #863.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Could you explain how penis-in-vagina is not het sex to you? If a trans woman wanted to have sex with me, and thought that ought to involve their penis in my vagina, I would not consider that "lesbian sex."

I've heard similar sentiments from gay men who do not sleep with trans men. And certainly from lesbians, who've been fending off cis men claiming to "be lesbians" apparently since forever.

[(Anonymous)]

da

You 100% have a right to your boundaries about how you want to have sex and so does everyone else. If PIV is too firmly associated with heterosexuality and is not desirable for you, then you certainly should not engage in it or feel pressure to do so. However, not everyone feels the same on this matter. Just as you have a right to your sexual boundaries and your definition of lesbian sex, so do other people (when it comes to their own sex lives, fantasies and relationships).

I've read vintage lesbian erotica from decades ago with themes of gender fluidity and sex acts involving a biological penis, as well as read interviews with lesbians and gay men who would do straight scenes in a particular BDSM community context, but never otherwise have heterosexual encounters. Transgender people have varying degrees of dysphoria when it comes to sex, and various ties to various communities. Some people have strict genital/sex act preferences and some don't. Gender and sexuality are complicated. Fandom, of course, reflects that.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, agreed. (And I can definitely relate to BDSM making things that are normally clear-cut more complicated!)

[(Anonymous)]

Whether or not you, personally, want to be involved in a specific sex act is not what makes it het, gay, or lesbian. That's not the boundary line here. If PIV sex is taking place between two men, or between two women, it is not het sex. By definition.

That's true because trans men are men and trans women are women. But there's really just no real argument for your position that isn't absurd. Because het people have PIV sex, that means that any PIV sex is het? Well, het people like oral sex, too - does that mean that any oral sex is also het? You don't personally want to partake in any PIV sex and that means it isn't lesbian sex - well, does that hold for other kinds of sex that you personally aren't interested in, are those het sex as well?

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't say anything about its being of interest to me. And considering everyone has mouths, the equivalence you're drawing seems rather questionable.

If there is a way to tell that PiV trans sex is its own thing from the sex act, as opposed to from how the people involved self-define, and writers are writing it incorrectly out of ignorance about what to do differently, I would be interested in knowing that. Which is why I asked.

It might also matter to the various people in this thread that avoid reading het sex scenes.

[(Anonymous)]

And considering everyone has mouths, the equivalence you're drawing seems rather questionable.

I think the framework that you're using is far more deeply flawed, because it would imply that the basis for everything we're talking about is determined based on biological physical characteristics, and that's what I disagree with. The reason that it's gay sex when two gay men have oral sex is because they're gay men having sex with each other. Not for any other reason, not because all people have mouths, or anything of the kind. By the same token, what makes a sexual encounter het is not that one person involved has a penis and the other person does not.

If there is a way to tell that PiV trans sex is its own thing from the sex act, as opposed to from how the people involved self-define, and writers are writing it incorrectly out of ignorance about what to do differently,

I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about how people write trans smut in fic. But that's not really what I'm saying or what I'm talking about here. I don't think there necessarily has to be or should be any way to tell that "PiV trans sex is its own thing from the sex act opposed to from how the people involved self-define". I don't think that's the criterion; there does not have to be any specific way to tell that PiV trans sex is its own thing from the sex act itself. I just totally disagree with that whole point of view. If two gay men are having sex, they are not having het sex. That's bullshit.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, given the thread topic, I'm more interested in a conversation about what makes for good trans smut in fic than one about where precisely we disagree about politics.

[(Anonymous)]

If that's the conversation you wanted to have, then you picked a hell of a way to start it

[(Anonymous)]

Bisexuals still exist and still aren't straight.

[(Anonymous)]

Sure, but if they're having PiV sex, I'd expect the fic to be tagged as m/f. Or het. Wouldn't you?

Alternatively, we may have stumbled on why people are complaining that they get into fic and there's PiV and it wasn't warned for.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm bi too but this is such an insecure sounding reply. Are you trying to say a man and a woman having sex isn't straight if one of them is bi or am I misreading?

[(Anonymous)]

Probably the first.

[(Anonymous)]

Non-binary people exist and still aren't straight.

[(Anonymous)]

Men who have penetrative sex exclusively with other men and don't consider themeslves "gay" also exist. Het sex and gay sex can be had by people who identify all sorts of ways.

[(Anonymous)]

The world is full of people who have PIV sex that is not "het sex" because they are not "het" no matter how much exclusionary, "gold-star" assholes want them to be. You don't speak for all lesbians or the LGBT+ community.

[(Anonymous)]

DA: "You don't speak for all lesbians or the LGBT+ community." like you don't speak for al the LGBT+ community neither. Get off that holier-than-thou soap box.

[(Anonymous)]

da

When did they say they did? They disagreed with the person they replied to and said that person doesn't speak for everyone. Pretty clear to me.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

The person they replied to never claimed to speak for anyone but themselves, though. Whereas, the implication of "you don't speak for all gays and lesbians!" is pretty clearly "what I just said represents the community's true position much better."

[(Anonymous)]

This.

[(Anonymous)]

You "really" need to "work" on having a less sanctimonious typing style

[(Anonymous)]

By "cis men claiming to 'be lesbians'" do you mean literally, as in for instance a man uses a fake profile to pose as a lesbian on a dating site, and then shows up to the date as himself, looking and claiming to be a man? Because if so, it is verrrrrry badly-worded. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you used the phrases "trans woman" and "trans man" elsewhere in your comment, but the "cis men claiming to be lesbians" part sounds identical to how TERFs talk about trans lesbians.

[(Anonymous)]

This absolutely has been an issue as long as lesbian only dating apps have been a thing and longer.

[(Anonymous)]

I do mean literally. This was a common (if tasteless) joke when I was in university - men who had no interest in being seen as anything but men would try to find some sort of argument loophole that would make them the same gender as women, and claim they were being unfairly discriminated against if they were turned down by lesbians or not allowed in a sex-segregated girls dorm or other nonsense like that. Because they'd insisted they "were women." You can bet they weren't claiming to be lesbians when they were applying for a job or trying to defend their thesis or interacting with other men! This was just something they did to fuck with women. It was a frat boy thing, and a sketchy nerd thing.

You really never ran into this? I said "cis men" there because I meant cis men. And I associate it with the same kind of asshole who would go to class in a t-shirt captioned "FBI: Female Body Inspector."