fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6131 ]

[ SECRET POST #6131 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6131 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. https://i.imgur.com/3aW2twL.png
[OP marked NSFW for nudity in a sex scene]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 06 secrets from Secret Submission Post #876.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - not in English, again ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I take this as something OP does see, but hasn't really thought of what actually is going on and just assumes that it really is femininity overwhelming anything else. They have the beginning of an issue when it comes to male characters, but not really female characters. There's something else going on that I think they're struggling towards recognizing.

It's much more interesting to discuss it, and maybe help OP along their thought process, than to just call troll and be mean.

AYRT

I usually don't like calling 'troll' on secrets as I agree it stifles discussion. But in this case I think there is far too little information and far too inflammatory of a statement for a meaningful discussion to be had.

Like, when does this happen? In what mediums? Who is making these judgements? I can't think of any examples, but can think of plenty where a female character taking on some kind of male role was dismissed, diminished or ridiculed just because they were female.

It happens right here on F!S. It's
upthread, but I saw it when there was a secret about Jyn Erso a few weeks back: she has a couple traits that could be considered feminine (one of them isn't even really a trait -- the actor is wearing make-up in a promotional photo), so she's completely feminine, with no masculine traits at all.

I saw it also with Juliette from 'Silo:' she has long hair and was in love with a man, and those things are seen as wiping out all her masculine traits.

AYRT

Can I ask, in what way do you want these characters to be perceived? And why are they being measured by their subjective masc/femme traits?

I'm not aware of the Jyn Erso drama, remember a secret about Juliette from Silo, which IIRC correctly was about the secret maker finding her hot and saying that meant their type was butch women. And several commenters agreed and was hot and a great character but disagreed she was particularly butch. Is that what you're talking about?

Personally I think both characters you've mentioned have some "masculine" traits (though we still haven't defined that) but also very much fit a traditional Hollywood femme mold physically. I'm just incredibly confused about why having that opinion is an issue

AYRT

Because that's exactly the issue: if a woman looks "physically femme," then nothing else about her matters. You say you don't even know how "masculine" is defined, but you sure seem to have an idea of what "feminine" is, and if a woman looks that way, that's all that matters about her to you.

Like, maybe you think this secret was trolling because it's talking about you, and the way you conceptualize women.

AYRT

I think a lot about femme should also be defined. But I also am confused, because a character having a 'femme' hair isn't all I care about. I honestly don't think that way about characters unless in a discussion like this. And I still don't understand what on earth OP has an issue with and what they want out of female characters and how people see them

AYRT

Oh! And then, it's not you, but look at this thread: even a woman who isn't "physically femme" is still femme, because being physically masc isn't actually masc, don't you know.

It's an impossible fucking bar. There is no way for a woman to be sufficiently masc.

AYRT

But why are we trying to achieve masc??? That's what I don't understand

AYRT

It's not about achieving masc so much as escaping a box. There's nothing you can do to get out of it; there's always something about you that can be used to shove you right back into it.

And when it comes to characters, there's a certain set who says they want women who are outside of the box - but no female character ever seems to be outside of the box enough for them. As some above have come right out and said, the only way for a female character to meet their standards is to be 100% masculine, which is impossible.

And, of course, it happens in the reverse: the side that accepts femininity in women abhors masculinity in them. I still, to this day, have not been able to let go of a female author deriding Starbuck as a "boy with boobs," declaring she wasn't a real woman, that no women are like her -- but there was me, a real woman, relating to her.

There's no way to be good enough. There's no pleasing anyone.

AYRT

Hmmm. It's possible we think similarly but just describe the phenomenom differently. I see women getting shoved back into the 'woman' box or not being allowed to be non traditionally feminine as fundamentally about sexism (which includes internalised sexism). Which covers a wider range of portrayals of female characters than just where they fit on a masc-femme scale.

For instance, I'm interested in seeing female characters with a wider range of body types, including buff, but also fat - but deviations from Hollywood hot get particularly nastily received. Which I see as sexism.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #6131 ]

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