[ SECRET POST #6168 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6168 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 36 secrets from Secret Submission Post #882.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

[ariakas]

The TLOU fandom legit makes me feel insane because it's not like this AAA zombie cover shooter required Ulysses levels of media literacy to understand. Like, was I the stupid one???? If Joel makes some unambiguously heroic decision to "save" Ellie from the dastardly murderous Fireless, like they seemed to think, then the whole story is pointless. The narrative is empty. It would have the depth and meaning of Mario saving the Princess from Bowser. But his final conversation with Ellie might as well be them turning to the camera to say "JOEL DID NOT RAMPAGE THROUGH A HOSPITAL MURDERING UNARMED DOCTORS AS A RIGHTEOUS ACT, HE DID SO BECAUSE HAVING A SECOND CHANCE AT RAISING A DAUGHTER IS MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM THAN BOTH THE POSSIBILITY OF A BETTER FUTURE AND THAT PROXY DAUGHTER'S OWN WANTS."

Then TLOU2 comes out and it treats Joel badly and it's shocked pikachu face and tears of rage all the way down from the fandom while I'm sitting there like. Yes. That was the text. That was the story. That was always the story. You deluded yourself into thinking otherwise because????? Feelings??? You really liked Joel and Ellie???? Something something giraffe????

Honestly just seems to be daddy issues, man. Or, like, they would save Ellie. And Joel saved Ellie! So Joel has to be morally right. Because they're morally right! My strong protective feelings regarding my loved ones trump the lives of all others and the betterment of humanity and the wishes/desires/free will of said loved ones if it means I lose them because that's sad for me--- no, because it's wrong! It's wrong not to want that! You're the evil one, not me! So you get essays of spin about what is not by any means an ambiguous narrative.

Personally, I'd like to think that I'd make a different choice, but even if I didn't, I would lay it all out for the person I loved why I made that choice (Fireflies didn't actually seem like they knew what they were doing, they misrepresented themselves/the risks/the possibility of a cure and the ramifications were lethal). But if I did so, I would know that they might hate me for it. Or that they might go back, or to someone else with medical skills/scientific knowledge, to try again, and I might lose them anyway.

I'd also like to think I wouldn't just murder everyone I saw and would use the minimal amount of lethal force required, take my loved one, hold the doctors hostage, and be like "alright, we're going to wake her up and see what she thinks about this" with the door open to coming back if they improve their extraction technique, etc., or finding another group that's more above board. Joel doesn't do this because this isn't what motivates him. What motivates him is 100% satisfaction for his own feelings through his desire for a daughter do-over. If he does this, he might lose her. So he doesn't. BECAUSE JOEL SUCKS HE IS THE WORST.

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

[(Anonymous)]

All of this! The ONLY thing that gives me pause and the slightest approval for Joel is that we have no idea if anyone told Ellie it was a fatal procedure. I'm big on informed consent. Wake her up, ask her if they told her. Does it change her mind? But Joel took that choice away from her, too. He didn't do it because the procedure might be against Ellie's wishes, or that it won't work. He did it because he would be hurt by her death. He seemed pretty damn sure she would have marched right back there, otherwise why lie?

As you said, the text explicitly lays out that Joel is Not A Good Person. Tess says it right out, we see it when Joel leaves that family with a small child to die, being on "both sides" of the help-me-ambush, he won't let Ellie talk about Sam because it makes him uncomfortable, etc. This man does not give a shit about anyone but himself. He "saves" Ellie for himself, not because the procedure might be unethical/impossible. I do not understand why people are getting so up in arms defending him.

And speaking of Tess, omg... She gets infected trying to get Ellie to the capital and she tasks Joel with seeing it through to the end with the hope that the infections can stop. And Joel just shat all over her death because he never got over Sarah's. Man, Joel is an asshole.

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

[ariakas]

Thank you I feel so much less insane talking to someone else who was able to parse and understand the narrative of this AAA zombie cover shooter. Joel was a POS from the start and the story goes out of its way to recount the ways but d'awwwwwwwwwww he has Dad Feelings, and d'aaawwwwww Ellie is cute, and d'aaaaawwwww the zoo and suddenly it's shocking that he's treated like the POS he always was and has remained (albeit one with understandable, human failings, which is what makes the story compelling).

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

[(Anonymous)]

Seriously, this. I was warned by a friend who had played the game a while ago that people were rabid about defending Joel. Even when I got to the end and was ranting to her about what a piece of shit Joel was, she kept giving me the arguments trying to defend him, because while she recognizes intellectually that he's a horrible person, she still likes him. Which is fair. I love plenty of morally reprehensible characters. (Hi Fannibals!)

I thought that was the extent of it. "Yeah, he's a shitty person but I love him anyway." Or, "I love my selfish immoral grandpa!" I could deal with THAT. But full, unflinching defense of his morality?? No. Absolutely Not. What are you people doing???