fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6188 ]

[ SECRET POST #6188 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6188 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[9-1-1, Bobby/Athena]

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[Pic is from XKCD]

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08. [SPOILERS for Sea of Stars]

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09. [WARNING for discussion of dub/non con, forced impregnation]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #884.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Does Tumblr actively hate its users, or is the site's fuckery emblematic of the broader trend of the internet becoming less and less user-friendly over time?

I know, I know. "Tumblr sucks! Why are you still there?" I'm still there because my fandom is still there, and so that's where I need to announce updates to my fic. But holy goddamn hells, the interface has become nigh unbearable. Making a post used to be a quick and simple endeavor, as it should be, but now it takes half an hour to format a simple fic exerpt + link post. The editor is bogged down in code (oh, sorry; "features!"), so it reacts sluggishly, and you often find yourself selecting something you had no intention on selection. It "blocks" sections of a post, so if you try to delete, say, a single line of text, it's prone to getting confused and thinking you want to delete everything; if you try to edit or add a word, it's prone to sending you to an entirely different part of your post. Oh, and now it automatically cuts text without your go-ahead -- perhaps a small thing, but...it cuts after only, like, three paragraphs, which I feel incentivizes the kind of quick, shallow discourse that destroys discussion.

(Not that discussion was ever all that fantastic on Tumblr, but sometimes it could be; and now, well... The word "expand" has a particular psychological effect, I think. You see it, you think, "*sigh* this is gonna be long," and "long" feels like "hard," and so you scroll on, passing on a post that you would have gladly read a year ago, when it wouldn't have been partially hidden)

Now, some of the problems above can be solved with the HTML editor, but not all. And, in some ways, the HTML editor is more frustrating, because you feel even more intensely like you should have far more control than you actually do over the interface.

Anyway. I came away tonight feeling actively attacked by the site's designers, who apparently value aesthetics over functionality. But then I got to thinking: that's everywhere, now, isn't it? Sites that are re-designed in ways that look impressive, maybe, to someone, but that are busy, confusing, and counterintuitive to the end-user; sites that load and respond slowly, because somebody didn't get the memo about operational complexity (i.e. that you should strive for less of it); sites that do UI "overhauls" that no one fucking needs and surely haven't asked for. It's like they're all trying to make the experience of going online as unpleasant as possible, which you'd think would make us log off, but...no. We're as hooked and as online as ever, and sinking ever deeper into misery, because the quality of our drug of choice is on a steady decline.

On that note, how's your day going?

Genuine question: why do you need more than three paragraphs to do a fic update announcement?

As a user, I’m more inclined to read something with a cut than I am a giant wall of text. And if I encounter someone who habitually posts giant walls of text on any platform, I simply block them.

Same, regular uncut wall of text gets blocked. Also asking genuinely, why would you need three paragraphs for a fic update announcement, much less more than that?

AYRT

Oh, the paragraph thing is more something I've noticed, not something related to the fic update. I should have made that more clear.

Why is three paragraphs a "giant wall of text" to you?

AYRT Oh that makes sense. I thought you were posting overly detailed announcements.

As for why I prefer cuts, there are two main reasons. The first is that I will skim the entry and determine if I want to read it. I prefer not having to scroll very far to skip something that doesn’t interest or apply to me.

The other reason is to do with formatting on the platforms I’ve used that have cuts. Clicking the cut typically alters the appearance to make it easier to read. A larger font or a UI change, things like that. On tumblr, I get a very light gradient that helps me keep track of my place in a long entry. On DW, I get to read it in the user’s theme which usually is a nice experience (but not always and I will backbutton if they have a theme that makes my eyes bleed, which is rare).

AYRT

The first thing I think worth noting is that these cuts apply primarily to text posts. Someone can post a giant picture, and it won't automatically be cut, which means that you have to scroll past images you don't want to see, but can skip over text.

The second thing I would say - and I want to say this respectfully, and without shade, but I'm not sure it's possible to do so - is that you've in some sense proved my point. For some reason, it has become "hard" for you to scroll past things, should those things be "too long" (who decides what's too long? How short do things need to get before they stop being an inconvenience?). As much as I can understand the appreciation you have for reading something in a poster's chosen format, I'm not sure it's a good thing that we think it's an imposition to have to swipe our fingers on an entertainment device.

It’s easy to scroll past things. It’s visually unappealing to have to scroll a long time to pass text only posts.

But you’re also assuming all scrolling is done on a phone and that’s not the case. It’s worse on a computer and a billion times worse on a tablet because the aspect ratio and scroll mechanics work against the user in those cases.

But I am curious why you are against cuts? And why do you think this is a new development linked to smartphones? Pre-smartphone, it was common etiquette on LJ to use cuts. In web-ring days, usually only an abstract was posted. In email rings, the fic was hosted somewhere else and linked. Same with IRC and even on BBS it was common to set up a separate board for lengthy things. Hell, in books one can read the contents and generally skip to the part they want. It’s common for people to mute the television during commercials, so much so that it was a built in feature for a while. People are always going to pass over what doesn’t interest them. Why should your posts be the exception?

AYRT

Well, no - scrolling on a computer or a tablet is still scrolling on an entertainment device, and describing it as "hard" seems very indulgent.

I'm not against cuts per se. I'm against automatic cuts, because I think they enforce a top-down set of community norms that encourage shallow engagement. In all of the examples you give, the norms were being set by community members: they were in active negotiation with one another regarding when cuts/links/separate spaces make sense, and when they don't. When the platform itself makes that call, it's establishing some measure of control over the community, and it's also pushing people toward modes of engagement that benefit the platform over the community, i.e. lots of scrolling; lots of clicking; lots of reacting. Very little reading, reflecting, discussing.

Two things I want to comment on specifically because they struck me as odd:
Hell, in books one can read the contents and generally skip to the part they want.

I don't understand why someone would do this for anything other than a reference book. Why would you pick up a novel and skip whole chapters?

It’s common for people to mute the television during commercials, so much so that it was a built in feature for a while.

Sure, but commercials aren't content. People weren't in the habit of, say, muting the first 35 minutes of 'NYPD Blue' due to it being less exciting than the climax.

I can see your point about the platform deciding and enforcing the measures. That would rankle me if it weren’t something I agreed with. In the case of cuts, obviously I agree with them and will block anyone who doesn’t use them. I can’t think of anything at the moment that would be an issue for me but that’s because I’m tired, not because there’s nothing that qualifies.

As for skipping ahead in books; it would depend on the book. But I can’t think of anything I’d see someone post on tumblr that wouldn’t fall under the same general rule as reference material; the important information is presented first and everything else is everything else. It’s there and it should be there, but not everyone has to read it.

As for television, that’s an interesting point you make because in something NYPD Blue, viewers were invested and would watch the entire program even if they had taped it. But in more recent shows, like The Walking Dead, growing portions of the audience do skip ahead because episodes are filler for arcs and only the first 30-60 seconds and last 2-5 minutes are relevant.

I’m still trying to imagine what you’re posting that is being force cut that you think needs to be seen. I just can’t quite wrap my head around it. Three paragraphs is a lot. This is the fourth and least important and relevant paragraph in this comment. I can’t imagine if I posted something of this length on tumblr that I wouldn’t choose to add a cut after the first paragraph, if not earlier.

AYRT

Anon, I'm gonna be real here: I don't think we can reach a consensus, because we're looking for very different things from our online and media experience.

I don't think three paragraphs is a lot, and I don't think your fourth paragraph is irrelevant. On the contrary, I think it's worth reading, and that you're using it to present a very important part of your view. I'd regret not having seen it.

At the same time, it demonstrates very keenly that we're at an impasse: I want long and slow; you want fast and short. So, we're going to find it hard to agree on the best way to organize discussion.

That said, I want to put forward the argument that us being at an impasse is a point in favor of community-based rather than platform-based norms. You agree with the platform now, because it's in line with your preferences - but what if it wasn't? At the end of the day, I should be able to find a group that works for me, and you should be able to find a group that works for you, and we should not be pushed one way or the other by some designer who has no connection to the community at all.

AYRT

At the end of the day, I should be able to find a group that works for me, and you should be able to find a group that works for you, and we should not be pushed one way or the other by some designer who has no connection to the community at all.

Definitely agree! I’m sorry I can’t see things from your point of view in this particular scenario but it’s totally valid. And yes, I’d absolutely be annoyed if norms were forced on me that were counter to what I wanted.

I saw in another comment to you that you can disable the cuts, so I’m happy for you :)

Oh god I want to cut your comment in half so fucking bad. Of course you are all about no cuts ever, people never read you, aren't they?
I didn't.
Yes, I am being needlessly aggressive, but that is why people want to have a choice if they want to read or not something, this things are annoyance

Anon, I never once said, in this entire conversation, that I want "no cuts ever;" and the person I was talking to has equally long comments, which you are apparently fine with.

Purposely behaving like a jackass doesn't make the point you think it does.

i'm on tumblr and it's really boring lately.

You need to follow some new people.

The automatic click to read more is a feature you can disable.

AYRT

That's really good to know, thank you!

Aww I was hoping from the thread title that this would be a rant about the general state of the internet rather than focused on Tumblr's post editor. But now that I'm here, gonna give a +1000 to this rant, lol. I have also been struggling with Tumblr's crap post editor way more recently than I ever have in my life. So many times I've tried to copypaste a line of text into a post and it either just doesn't work or it pastes in a place DIFFERENT from my cursor?! I've tried to swap out the URL for a link that is already in my post and just pasting in a new URL makes the link highlight a different portion of the text in my post, WTF. Regularly, Tumblr's (e.g.) italics formatting is different on the published post than it is in the editor. I once struggled trying to delete extra empty "blocks" that Tumblr kept on placing in my post whenever I tried to type text and ended up needing to just delete the post and start over because it was zero words and 20 blank paragraphs.

The irony is that I was crossposting my art to Tumblr and dA at the same time, and amazingly dA has cleaner ways of handling links than Tumblr has now, which wasn't the case a couple of years ago. Jaysus. I know dA itself went through a round of that "let's overhaul the whole site and make it 'better'!" several years ago, but actually it's been pretty stable for a while. Same with Dreamwidth, same with Neocities. I think there are a lot of social media sites that recognize the simplicity of the old internet and recognize the risks of fucking too much with it, and I'm just going to wait on those sites until people join me I guess, lol.

AYRT

Yes! Everything you've described, I've experienced! It's like the damn thing is possessed! The whole act of posting so needlessly frustrating now; I really don't understand what they were thinking.

I haven't been on deviantArt in years, but yeah, definitely true that dreamwidth has remained stable and user-friendly! Hopefully it keeps on keeping on.

If only deviantart wasn't so hellbent on making everyone being involved with their shitty AI.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #6188 ]

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