fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #955 ]

[ SECRET POST #955 ]

⌈ Secret Post #955 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 288 secrets from Secret Submission Post #137.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

But he still wanted some wages, some compensation. I'd say most human beings like to work, like to have some sense of worth and something to do, rather than just sitting around being lazy. That's normal, and wanting wages is normal too. And I think that if the house-elves - all of the house-elves - were shown that they could work with better treatment and something in the way of wages, they'd enjoy it as well.

But I mean, the only house-elves we see are the Hogwarts house-elves (who are all treated pretty well), Winky (who is touched in the head), Dobby (who is love), and Kreacher (who was insane for most of the time we see him).

Just because they like working doesn't mean they like being enslaved - and I think that if more house-elves were shown what being free was like, they'd take it. That's all.

Firstly, is Winky touched in the head? When we really get to see her, she's an alcoholic and a disgrace, to be sure. Which is how some people handle being fired, especially from a position that they've held for a very long time. What we know of her prior to that is that she was very loyal to her family. If you mean the drinking, I'll give you that, but I want to know what we have to say that she was "touched in the head" before she hit the bottle.

For Dobby, I think, being "Free" and all that entailed represented the polar opposite of being the Malfoy's slave. But even so, there are times when you see that he is rather uncomfortable about certain aspects of it. His delight in generally treated as being downright crazy by the other elves.

What would you show the Hogwarts Elves that being free was compared to their lives? Having wages? They don't want them. They get insulted by the very idea of being paid for their services.

I think the definition of enslaved gets a little fuzzy around House Elves. It's not the same thing as human enslavement in a lot of ways. There's a magical geis that attatches them to a home and a family. The elves, from the look and sound of all the ones Hermione dismissed the thoughts of, are doing exactly what they want. If they're like most elves in stories, then they also want to do it in secret as much as possible, without being seen or acknowledged. They have a different culture and a different way of thinking. Being free for most House Elves would be the equivilant to being fired, and payment is treated like an insult. I don't really know what else there is to that unless the wizards are the ones who specifically made them that way.

Firstly - is your icon a quote from something? Because it sounds strangely familiar to me.

Secondly, we only see a very tiny bit of Winky before she's fired. In fact, I think her introductory scene is her getting fired, sobbing and generally freaking out that she is getting fired. I thought her reaction at it was strange - why would she freak out that badly for just being fired? Sure, some people turn to drinking and whatnot, but then again, I'd say those people might be a bit unbalanced, too. Surely not enough to warrant a trip to the loony bin, but enough that a talk to someone might help, just to get them on their feet again. You know, pick up their spirits, help them get their priorities in order. If Winky's enslavement was her life . . . I don't know, I just can't help but see that as unhealthy.

And if that's the way it is for house-elves across the board, then what does that say about them? Just because someone loves their way of living doesn't mean it's for the best. A homeless drug addict who is given drugs by some enabler may love that life, may not want to go to a rehabilitation clinic or get a job or get his act together, but that doesn't mean it's for the best. I give you that the Hogwarts house-elves are treated well - they're treated well, they like their jobs, etc.. But that doesn't mean that a Galleon a day would necessarily be a bad thing, even if they don't want it at first. It doesn't mean that other house-elves in the wizarding world might not come to appreciate wages or more freedoms (not necessarily being dismissed from work, but being able to wear things other than pillowcases, being given rooms other than tiny closeted things by broilers, being given wages, etc.) if they were given them. They might rebel at first - a lot of people do when it comes to change - but that doesn't mean it might not be better in the end.

Of course, this probably comes off as HIGHLY pretentious, and "How do you know it'll be better for them? You're not them," but at the same time, it's just how I feel. It's how I interpreted it, how I see it. Maybe it IS pretentious, maybe I personally DON'T know what would be better for them, but I just think that Dobby's case with the Malfoys couldn't have been an isolated incident, and I think that Hermione's fight for house-elf rights was for the best in the end (and she probably did get a lot more done once she matured from her fourteen-year-old self and actually got a position of power after school).

We saw Winky before she was fired, blissful as could be, but not for very long.

And her being fired was not like a person being fired-- her identity, her meaning of life, was wrapped up in a job that she loved, a familiy she was unfailingly loyal to, and she was fired for something that wasn't her fault-- but was loyal even after that.

There are people who willingly sign on to become 24/7 slaves in today's society. If a species is so closely tied to the home, it's not that surprising that they don't just want to serve, but are driven to do so-- but since it's not a "I want to serve anyone/everyone", they are loyal to their house.

The icon's Groucho Marx. Animal Crackers, I believe.

zanzou_chan said it better than I could. Winky's identity is completely tied up in her job. Now, for a human this may, in some circumstances, be considered unhealthy. But imagine a person has given fifty loyal years of service to a single employer. Their place of employ also happens to be their home, and their family has been employed by the same place for generations. And suddenly, without any warning, they are sent packing--literally. I'd freak out too. And I'm willing to bet Winky had been the Crouch's House Elf for...a hundred years, easy.

The drug-addict allusion doesn't really hold water. The House Elves aren't self-destructive. In their situation, they seem to have a community, and definitely an ability to have a functional life. They have no need to change or get their act together. They're very competent, clever beings.

More to the point, they aren't human. Their identity is tied to their work, their home, and their family. What drove me crazy was Hermione forcing her modern, middle-class, English values on people who were not only of a completely different culture, but a completely different species while dismissing their very vocal opinions on their own situation. It only stands to reason that they are wired differently.

But I think what Hermione says about them being brainwashed does hold water in some cases. I mean, look at the way they're forced to follow orders. This isn't just an employer-employee relationship, this is an actual slavery relationship. Look how many times Dobby was forced to shut his fingers in the oven doors, the way Kreacher would rush to start bashing his head against the floor or wall. While the Hogwarts house-elves were treated well, other half-elves were clearly not, and there needed to be laws created or freedoms granted to those elves so that they weren't treated like that anymore.

I don't know why I didn't think about that before - stupid of me, I suppose, but all the same, that's more important than the clothes or the wages. It's the treatment. It doesn't matter if the elves think it okay or not - for all that they have a different culture, that different culture is still harmful to them depending on who their master is. Even if they're not self-destructive, it still could very well be destructive because of how tightly they're bound.

Okay, the treatment I will definitely give you. If she would like to tone it down and actually take everyone's views into consideration, I would love to see her lead a crusade for ethical treatment of House Elves. That just needs to happen. "Liberation" is such a muddy term there, but actually treating them like living beings and not punishing them for "transgressions" seems like something that needs to happen.

My guess is that House Elves started as brownies or whatever hearth-spirit legend-type thing, bound to the house and willing to serve the family therein (and enjoying it) for nothing but food and respect, and the wizards added the geis of abject servitude that makes them compelled to utterly obey. That needs to change. "Freeing" the Elves, in so many words, would just make a mess of people miserable.

Yeah. I think probably later on, after the war ended and whatnot, when Hermione actually got to work on making life better for house-elves, laws were created to do just that - make life better for them, not necessarily change their entire way of living. She helped give them more freedoms, not necessarily set them completely free. It's hard to say, because we don't know too much of what happened after the series ended (mostly we just know who hooked up with who and what kids resulted, which . . . doesn't really interest me all that much, personally), but that's what I'm guessing. Nice, healthy compromise was reached.

(On a side note, I keep wanting to type half-elves instead of house-elves. Comes from spending so much time in the Tales of Symphonia fandom, I guess. xD)

Here's a question: why would House Elves need wages? They don't need to buy clothes, or food, or pay rent. I think they might be able to accept the idea of being able to leave, but I don't think all house elves would ever accept that they had to be paid money to do what is (apparently) in their nature.

Why do people need a lot of things? Just because you don't need it doesn't mean you don't want it. And who knows, maybe they'll want to buy clothes - or maybe they won't, but I think the wages would be more for symbolic reasons than anything else. Maybe it'd be optional rather than being mandatory, and other 'freedoms' - being able to leave, having an actual room, being treated as employees rather than slaves - would be.

But they don't seem to want anything.

And while those things are nice, at the end of the day, I think they would be there to make wizards feel better, not House Elves. Most House Elves would probably just think their Masters are being weird. :|

House Elves: they aren't people.

I'm sorry, but putting aside the fictional aspect, your last sentence STRONGLY offends me. They may not be human, but they are certainly people. They are sentient creatures with thoughts, feelings, needs, and desires - whatever those needs and desires may be. They most certainly are people.

No, I meant they aren't people. They don't have the same drives as human beings, they don't have the same necessities to life-- service could very well be essential to their survival.

There are ways in which they are similar, yes. But at the end of the day, they are different, alien, other. They aren't considered people by the wizarding world on any level (see: they don't seem to have rights), and I doubt they would want to become entangled in the mess of wizarding politics that would be required if they are people.

They aren't people. They are magical beings, different down to the core. What you would apply to a person you know cannot be applied to them.

They aren't human, but they are people. Just because they aren't seen to be people by the wizarding world doesn't mean they aren't. Back in the days of slavery in the United States, African-Americans weren't seen as people by the white population. Does that mean that they weren't people back then? No, definitely not. They were most certainly people then just as they ARE people now.

The wizarding world is FAR from perfect, and they are NOT always right just because they're human. The house-elves are elves, yes - they are elves, and they are not human, but they are MOST CERTAINLY people. Magical beings or not, they are people, and they deserve to have rights and be treated as such.

They don't fit the legal definition of people. Nor should they-- it would involve them having the same rights, and be applicable to the same laws, as people, and they are different enough that this hsould not be the case. They are magical beings, and should be treated as such-- that might have a lot of overlap for people's rights, but they aren't the same, and should not be treated as such.

Having rights is not something limited to people. Animals have rights. Businesses have rights. Being a person is not at all what dictates those things. You might be attached to the term, but it doesn't fit for house elves, just like it doesn't fit for goblins, or fairies, or centaurs.

I think we just have a different definition of the word "people," so I'm going to just let it go and agree to disagree.

But because they're not human, they also don't think the same way humans do. To them, serving humans for free is GOOD. It's what they WANT to do.

Yes, they're sentient creatures with feelings and the like, but that does not mean they're going to act and behave and think EXACTLY like humans.

But that also doesn't mean that they should be bound to the slavery that forces them to harm themselves when ordered to for the gratification of humans (whether it's to punish them, or just for sick amusement).

It doesn't make the fact that they have no rights and that they are virtually slaves to the wizarding race right in the slightest.

I never said that it was RIGHT that some of the human masters made their house elves HARM themselves. THAT is definitely abuse, which is always wrong.

If they're treated fairly though I don't see the problem with them serving humans for free.

I think the wages thing should be an option. Like, it shouldn't be mandatory for the half-elves to accept it, but it should be mandatory for the witches/wizards to at least offer.

And I think the physical punishment ordered by the wizarding world should definitely be illegal. I also think the house-elves should be able to leave if they choose, should have actual rooms and nice sleeping quarters instead of, say, closest next to the broilers, and should basically be treated like people who are granting a service to the wizards rather than slaves that are there to work and be kicked around.

I also think they're people, even if no one else agrees with me.

I don't know about the wages thing, since they're like... offended if offered money, IIRC.

As for the other stuff, though, yeah, the abuse should definitely be illegal and they should be offered rooms of their own (if that wouldn't offend them--not sure if it would), and they should be treated fairly and not kicked around and stuff.

But as for being totally, 100% freed? I'd say no, since that's not what they want.

I think a balance could be found, and I think that any work put toward finding that balance is a good thing. Maybe they wouldn't be 100% freed - but then again, maybe they would be. It's impossible to say what would make them happiest in the end, though I think my biggest stance on the subject is just that their rights should be fought for, and that it's wrong to think, "Oh, they like it, so just leave things the way they are."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #955 ]

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