fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #095 ]

WORD. I'm so annoyed by yaoi = OOC. Because it DOESN'T. ~~And my slash OTP IS canon now, like it or not.~~

Yep. And, though lots of stuff you sure don't see on tv, what people write about still *could* be canon, behind the scenes, at least if you get the characters personalities right. At least, the stuff I watch/read sure could be.
I can see people's annoyance if it was just totally twisting things so that it was completely implausible, but, if you do it 'right', (though writing stuff for fun is also fun, if that's what they're doing, stop complaining...) then there shouldn't really be much of a problem.
But maybe I just happen to like stuff where things like that would work... (slash and non slash) Seriously. So much of my stuff- slash, at least lots of scenarios, could be completely plausible. If their personalities are completely OOC then I'm not so forgiving. :P
What's your slash OTP that's now canon, pretentioustfu?

Yep. And, though lots of stuff you sure don't see on tv, what people write about still *could* be canon, behind the scenes, at least if you get the characters personalities right. At least, the stuff I watch/read sure could be.
I can see people's annoyance if it was just totally twisting things so that it was completely implausible, but, if you do it 'right', (though writing stuff for fun is also fun, if that's what they're doing, stop complaining...) then there shouldn't really be much of a problem.
But maybe I just happen to like stuff where things like that would work... (slash and non slash) Seriously. So much of my stuff- slash, at least lots of scenarios, could be completely plausible. If their personalities are completely OOC then I'm not so forgiving. :P
What's your slash OTP that's now canon, pretentioustfu?

WORD. Absolute word. ~~My canon OTP is Word and your post.~~

I know a lot of people get mad when I say this, but I really do think Wolfwood and Vash in the Trigun manga are canon slash, even though they never had graphic buttsex on page. However, they seemed to have a very deep relationship that could have gone friendship or relationship, in volume 10, the last volume where one was alive, there was things like one thinking about wanting to spend his tomorrows forever with the other that definitely pushed the view toward love, and the ending featured no relationships.

Also, in an interview where the writer equivocated about the reaction of yaoi doujinshika when asked what he'd feel about "questionable fanzines" for the anime, he also said he sees love as just one of the connections between people, and wanted to show that in a relationship in his manga. Seeing as theirs was the only relationship that was really depicted in the manga (even though there wasn't buttsex or even kisses on page) I'd say that's enough evidence to claim canon.

:) Glad you like what I have to say on this topic.

Hmn, I don't know Wolfwood and Vash, or Trigun... well, heard of Trigun, haven't read it. But, I do strongly believe that just because there isn't graphic stuff on page/on screen, it doesn't mean that it's not possible that it could happen, could be happening, or the author/writer have put it so it *is* happening they're just not showing it. So, fair enough calling yours canon.
I have a few that are like that, or at least I strongly believe there's canon romantic feelings between characters. Others... I can plausibly see situations where they would end up together. :)

But, I do strongly believe that just because there isn't graphic stuff on page/on screen, it doesn't mean that it's not possible that it could happen, could be happening, or the author/writer have put it so it *is* happening they're just not showing it.

*dances* I think I love you. One of my arguments for why that is is in my fandom, is that the original fanbase is shounen/seinen, and the writer didn't want to offend his male Japanese fans by making the story totally yaoi-centric with graphic m/m sex and/or didn't want to get the heave-ho from his publisher (he'd already had to switch publishers once for other reasons). Plus, I think he's more interested in explosions and drama than in romantic love depictions. Which is why I love it so much.

But yeah, "there's nothing onscreen/on page" is an argument I personally find spurious, simply because as much as we'd like to believe writers are totally free, most are bound by commercial agreements and by fan expectations and by ratings/FCC/insert legal regulations here. That argument really makes almost as much sense as trying to argue that Lucy and Ricky weren't married in "I Love Lucy" because there wasn't a hardcore porn episode (never mind how unfriendly the 1950s climate was toward any mention of s-e-x despite being able to show a husband spanking his wife clothed. . . yay hypocrisy! But that's another rant. . .)

Indeed. There's a lot of subtext in a lot of things, books, movies, tv shows, manga, whatever, where it's quite clear that the author just couldn't show something or go down a particular path for some reason, so just kept it... there but not there. Happens with stuff that 'is' happening in the background, and unrequited love, and stuff that's going to happen in the 'future'. Just because there's no episode where he/she is pining after him/her doesn't mean they might not secretly love them... others, just because you never see them waking up in bed together doesn't mean they don't. Just because they never discuss their feelings or kiss on screen doesn't mean they're not going to at a later date. But I love a lot of britcoms and SO many of them are like that, seriously. Hints all over the shop. I like slash, but not in the 'omgz have to put them together because it'z hot guyz makkin luv!' way, only if I can see a connection. That sort of thing, I'm just '... wth where did you get that from!' (Though, i do understand if people are doing it for fun.) That just makes little sense to me... BUT I totally think that sometimes, it's just 'there'. But unspoken. :)
Something else that annoys me is people who think that OOC is 'he loves her not him!!! So don't slash him with him!' um, that's not OOC people... (as long as there's explanation for it), that's a completely different thing. *sigh*

Oh, and I know of lots of writers who just weren't allowed to put in the relationships they wanted to put in for whatever reason. One I know of, I'm completely convinced that they wanted to put it in but didn't want to be known as 'that show with the gay guys' or whatever.

Oh yes. I personally don't think I'm overanalyzing to think my fandom's writer could have had several good reasons to be much more subtle with it. One of them is often argued by the anti-yaoi crowd itself, when they say stuff like "it's not about yaoi!" I think the writer was/is probably acutely aware of how many idiotic people would have totally sworn off ever reading any more of the manga/would have thrown royal bitchfits if he'd had anything more than a boatload of subtext, a couple hugs, and a lot of implication.

Yep. Guys would be all 'ew it's gay not reading it!' girls would have been all... making it only about Teh Gay and not about their personalities/the plot... *sigh*

*sigh* Indeed.

I have to decide what I'm doing about that with my own original writing. And it's a scary decision. I can totally see why writers would choose not to go with it. But... it's really sad that the minute there's a relationship there, it's about the relationship, rather than the story or the characters or whatever.

Oh ugh YES. That's why I'm so picky about fandoms: I HATE HATE HATE with the passion of a burning fire anything that becomes all about The Couple or The Ship, and everything else goes to the wayside and it becomes all about ~~Miaka and Tamahome Mulder and Scully Buffy and Spike~~ ENOUGH.

Writers who can avoid making it all about The Couple and/or keep The Couple from falling into the most common traps that gather my ire (stereotyped gender or seme/uke roles, sudden woobiness and want for kids/settling down/glurginess no matter what) earn my undying love.

:) Luckily, most of the stuff I'm interested in does manage to avoid that. People like certain pairings, but that's not all there is to it. Which is *great*. Though, for one couple I like, I do like writing about their relationship quite a lot, but that's not *all* there is to the characters, they still keep their personalities, and they most definitely do not fall into 'roles'. You don't want it to be *only* about a ship. Well, I don't.

Again, I completely agree with you. ^_^ I'm like that with my ship. I *hope* I'm good enough at writing they keep their personalities and stay out of roles. ^_^

Well one of my slash ships is canon (so therefore, not slash) and it drives me insane if people complain that they're not in 'roles'. Erm no. They're not. Because that's not how their personalities go, and there's definitely no 'he's all weak and pathetic and wears pink because he prefers to be on the bottom'/'he's tough and manly and never shows emotion because he apparently likes being on top' stuff going on in canon.
The others, I can't see fitting into those sorts of roles *ever*. I wish people would look at what characters are like a little more...

Well one of my slash ships is canon (so therefore, not slash) and it drives me insane if people complain that they're not in 'roles'. Erm no. They're not. Because that's not how their personalities go, and there's definitely no 'he's all weak and pathetic and wears pink because he prefers to be on the bottom'/'he's tough and manly and never shows emotion because he apparently likes being on top' stuff going on in canon.
The others, I can't see fitting into those sorts of roles *ever*. I wish people would look at what characters are like a little more...

OH YEAH. More word here, because I get REALLY sick of the dominant fanon that "x character" is a weepy uke. Whether "x character" is Duo Maxwell in Gundam Wing, Vash in Trigun, Cloud in FFVII, it's all the same and it's all stupid. None of these characters are weepy ukes. Yes, they have Problems and Issues, but that's what makes them fun to explore why they can live with them and how they deal, not how they slice up their wrists six ways from Sunday and whine for moar buttsex, not how they're suddenly feminine without ever having expressed interest in being trans (and no, Cloud's crossdressing scene doesn't count), and especially not how they're so emotionally transparent there's no mystery, no tension left.

Yeah. Well the canon couple I was talking about, (I'm convinced that they switch anyway, but I do think that one of them tends to prefer to be on the bottom...) one of them *does* cry quite a lot. But, that's not because he's the bottom! It's because that's just how he *is*. And in lots and lots of other aspects, he's very strong. He's opinionated, loud, talkative, confident (except in relationships, when he goes into paranoia), etc. The 'top' one, he is extremely kind, doesn't like rocking the boat, and is quiet. He also wants to be a father. He's very protective though, in his way. But he has issues with not always realising he's done something wrong, and also with lying. They're both really nice people, both with their own issues and personality types. Both protective of each other, in different ways. Both have flaws and strengths. They are *not* stereotypes. And I've seen people getting bothered by that before. That there's not 'the manly one' and the 'girlie one'. It ... disarms them. And that really pisses me off...

And sure, some characters with Problems and Issues *might* cut, or like sex, or like being protected by their boyfriends, or whatever. But... at least make it plausible people...

WORD. Agreed to everything here. Also, I'm sick of "weepy uke" being a concurrent pathology with drinking/drug abuse/cutting/EDs/nymphomania/crying/whatever. Just because someone has one or more of these, doesn't mean the uke stereotype should be invoked. Grr.

Totally. *sigh*
I'm sure there are relationships which fit into those stereotypes, but, don't *force them into it for no reason*

Oh yeah. >_

I just have to say...your conversation here was AWESOME. I agreed with nearly every word. *thumbs up* Now I know there are other people that think the same way, AND can have a reasonable conversation on this community...

Aww, thank you. *bow* ^_^

[ SECRET POST #095 ]

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